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 Posting a reply to post #84764

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84764 No.84764
Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition has been announced. It is going to be co-released alongside the DC Adventures role playing game. Both games will share the same rules. Since Mutants and Masterminds 2nd Edition is my favorite role playing game thanks to its adaptability, I'm interested in hearing other people's expectations, concerns, what-have-you. To get things started, I thought that I'd post links to the initial interviews and currently available design journals.

"Steve Kenson Talks DC Adventures and M&M 3E With Comic Hero News"
Aaron Einhorn over at Comic Hero News sits down with designer Steve Kenson to talk about the upcoming DC Adventures and Mutants & Masterminds, Third Edition, games. Check out Steve's interview and the latest news!

"DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #1"
Steve Kenson has posted the first in a series of DC ADVENTURES design journals. In this installment, Steve writes about how to encompass the vast DC Universe in four books, and what you'll find in each book.

"Chris Pramas Talks DC on ENWorld"
ENWorld interviews Green Ronin's Chris Pramas about the upcoming DC ADVENTURES game.

"DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #2"
The second of Steve Kenson's DC ADVENTURES design journals is up. In today's issue, Steve discusses the thought processes behind the DC ADVENTURES rules, and thus also the Mutants & Masterminds Third Edition rules.

"DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #3"
Steve Kenson has posted #3 in his series of DC ADVENTURES design journals. In today's issue, Steve reveals which heroes and villains made the grade for inclusion in the DC ADVENTURES Hero's Handbook.

"DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #4"
Visit the DC ADVENTURES page today to read Design Journal #4 by Steve Kenson. This week he gives us the complete character sheet for the Green Lantern!

"Black Avenger Appears!"
Because you demanded it, Black Avenger is finally making his M&M debut! Not once, but twice! With the cat out of the bag on the new edition of M&M and with the demand for a write-up of Black Avenger (who was left out of Silver Age), we decided to write him up as he should have appeared in Silver Age... and write him up for M&M3! He also makes a nice counterpoint to the much more powerful preview that went up on the DC Adventures site yesterday. Enjoy!

DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #5
Check out the DC ADVENTURES page today to read Design Journal #5 by Steve Kenson. This week we get a rundown of the Top 10 changes to the Mutants & Masterminds game system! It includes all sorts of tantalizing tidbits to keep you busy speculating in the Atomic Think Tank!

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From what I understand. 3rd edition Mutants and Masterminds is really just cutting the bullshit out of M&M 2nd edition.

You no longer have to specifically put your abilities at 16 or 18, turning 17 and 19 into odd "in-between" numbers. Instead you'll probably just spend two power points to raise it up by an ability rank so as the only applicable part of the score (the modifier) is changed. That's one of the things I was annoyed at in 2nd edition to be honest. It works for randomly generated scores like in DnD, but point buy systems do not lend well to odd in-between points.

They're also removing feats and replacing them with something else. Which I personally hope will be a bit more like WoD merits in that some may cost extra power points or even an extra power points per rank.

But what else... oh yes. Change the minions rules while you're at it. A sufficiently powerful character can buy 10 or so minions that have almost twice as many power points as he does. This could easily be solved by making it so all minions must have only a quarter of the original character's power points or something similar. They should also rule that minions can't combine attacks with the original or other characters.

WHAT ELSE... maybe limit the triggered power feat so it only applies to non-combat situations? Ya know. Preventing the inevitable "Teleport that's only triggered when I'm attacked" BS some players might implement.

As for the DC roleplaying game. Good on them! I probably won't use it, though I may be interested in seeing character stats considering a lot of DCU's characters have some very situational powers.

Fuck just seeing Infinite Mass Punch stated out gives me a migraine.

It looks like I'll be getting into M&M the same way I did with D&D. Convenient.

I'm so glad that some people are at least interested. I posted this thread on another *chan last week and haven't gotten any responses yet.

I'm /somewhat/ concerned about some of the changes that they're making. For example, I haven't been convinced that characters in 3.0 won't be more expensive, point-wise, to build than characters in 2.0. Although condensed skills will save some points, I suppose. Does anyone here play MnM with any regularity?


>Does anyone here play MnM with any regularity?

Two of my games are MnM games.

And just recently THREE of them were. The system is basically an easier to implement GURPS (keep in mind that's still not saying much. The system is STILL 'tarded in it's own way).

Can you tell me about your games? I'm curious.

Also, what irks you about 2.0?


Eh. Just a One Piece game and a fantasy game set in some gay little shitty homebrew.

What irks me about 2nd ED is basically more or less how complex the system can get. Like I know that's one of it's strong points. Giving yourself all kinds of different extras, flaws, drawbacks and power feats. But at the same time that can be an utter nightmare to manage. And while the power options allow for anything, it can make the game PRETTY BROKEN if done incorrectly.

It certainly doesn't help that the only good character generator for the game costs 30 fucking dollars to buy. Like I know people are willing to spend cash on stupid things but seriously? Fuck that.

You're talking about HeroLab?

I just make my sheets in a MsWord document.


Yea I'm talking about Hero Lab.

And while writing everything down is easy. Getting the math right is a pain. Especially when you can miscalculate one or two ranks of something and turn out you actually have like, 20 or more points left to spend on something. I dunno. I'm sure some people can do it. But for me it's a bit too much number crunching.

You could use Simpson's character builder, which is Excel-based. I've used it before and it works rather well. You can find it here:

You could also use this one, but it works best with OpenOffice. There's an Excel version, but apparently it's a little buggy. I've never used it, myself, but it looks okay. You can find it here:

DC ADVENTURES Design Journal #6
This week's design journal gives us a peak into how combat works in DC ADVENTURES! Steve Kenson is your guide in a fight between Batman, some thugs, and a certain Clown Prince of Crime!

I like the reduction of excessive die-rolling.

Although taking into account that their Batman isn't built like the standard PL10, 150pp player character, that fight went remarkably smoothly, I think. Takedown Attack is a perfect Advantage for goon-sweepers like the Dark Knight. I'm interested in seeing what the next design journal will reveal.

The DC ADVENTURES Hero's Handbook has been released in .pdf format. The book itself comes out next month. Has anyone read the .pdf and, if so, are you willing to comment on it?


I have and thus far it seems to be the following.

It seems that there are a multitude of defenses and that each of these can be saved against independently.

Like for instance: to attack someone with say a poison power. You have to roll against their fortitude DC (similar to 4th edition. This is their fortitude +10) and then they must save against it which is 1d20 + Their Fortitude Rank.

Overall it seems to be a lot better in terms of you only have to roll and add your calculated DC vs their own.

And once more you can only increase your damage by +5 for any situation. This includes receiving team bonuses and the like.

Very interesting! I can't wait to see for myself.

Is it well-written? Will the comic-book fan in me be pleased with their analysis of the characters?

Hm, that's pretty similar to D&D's new approach to defenses, which I thought was handled very well.

Not sure exactly what that last part meant, though.

Perhaps you can answer a question I've been wondering, now that you've had a chance to look through the rules. I may have even asked it earlier in the thread. Are characters more expensive to build in 3rd Edition than they were in 2nd? Is it harder to max out their ATK and DEF scores? Are more expensive skills a bummer? Any information you could provide would be happily received.


>Will the comic-book fan in me be pleased with their analysis of the characters?

Haven't read too much on it but it seems to be pretty up to date with most superheroes. Which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

For instance: Batman is still assumed to be lost in time somewhere and there's a suggested adventure about that.

>Not sure exactly what that last part meant, though.

OK basically think of it like this. You have an attack that target's a person's fortitude. The person's fortitude DC to hit is their Fortitude Rank + 10.

So imagine if their Fort is rank 8. This means to hit their fortitude you need to make a roll of 18 or higher. To save against it. It's a d20 roll + your fortitude rank so it's 1d20+8.

Basically it's a routine check to hit and they get to make a save against it at the same bonus only there's an element of chance into the degree of failure. Failure by 1 ain't so bad. Failure by 2 is worse. Failure by 3 is the worst possible result and either means you're incapacitated or dying or you're controlled or you're immobilized etc.


Overall it looks like the same number of points for a PL10 char. Ability ranks still cost 2 to increase (0 is the human average FYI so it's actually easy to keep track of) though there's 7 now instead of 6 so it may be a bit jarring.

Skills cost 2 ranks per 1 power point spent so they're overall more expensive per rank but if you just increase them at a rate of 2 per power point it's a bit simpler to figure out.

Advantages (what feats became) are now more or less the same. One per power point and all that. And powers still cost as much.

The only difference seems to be that defenses and attacks are a bit simpler to figure out. Since most physical defenses are linked directly to the fighting ability score. Essentially fighting is now a skill.

I understand that part, but the +5 bonus cap was kind of vague.

And I thought they had said that they were leaving the whole "Where in Time Is Batman" thing out and focus more on core details. They must have decided to take a more inclusive approach.


From what I gathered. The total circumstantial and ally bonus you can get over your PL limit for any action is equal to +5. No more. This was you can't have 10 or so minions attack a guy at the same time with you and deal a DC 40 attack against an enemy.

The whole thing is pretty much taking everything cannon in the DCU right now as cannon in the setting.

Hal Jordan was possessed by Parallax, Barry Allen created the Speed Force and Star City was blown up. Again. This could be cool or bad by some people's estimations. Mostly due to how they'll update the book as the DCU periodically updates. Are they gonna release a cannon update every month to try and give a general scope on what each hero is doing?

And for that matter. I'm interested in how they'll handle the 52 universes once Morrison releases his Multiverseity.

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Made my first character in the system to test the "easier to make" question.

Overall? Actually not so bad. Like... I could actually see myself making this without a character generator. Which is something I'd never comprehend with 2nd edition so go figure.

Very interesting.

Here's hoping that nobody leaks the .pdf until after the hardcover comes out. I want them to keep making these, after all.

Could you please explain how the new 'Fighting' ability works, and the purposes of the 'Dodge' and 'Parry' defenses?



You see: all range attacks cover the dodge defense. Arrows, explosions, bullets, balls of fire, that sort of thing. Every time you make a ranged attack roll you go for a guy's dodge.

Parry is the same. Only with melee. Swords, axes, punches, fists of fury, that sort of thing. So it's like Spiderman vs Batman in that sense. One can jump out of the way of a car being thrown at him gracefully. Another can block a sword getting thrown down at him.

So basically it works like this.
Defenses to hit
Parry: Melee attacks
Dodge: Range Attacks
Will: Mental attacks.

Dodge: Reflex against explosions and shit.
Fortitude: Saves against poison or draining or shit.
Will: Saves against mental powers.
Toughness: Saves against physical damage.

Keep in mind, like 2nd edition, damage effects start at DC 15 so as a whole they're more effective than other powers. As such no matter what your idea is it's typically a good idea to have some points in toughness.

Hm. Interesting. And you don't see these characters costing more points to build than their 2.0 counterparts?


Hm. Well...

Ya see. 2.0 had 6 abilities. While this edition has 8. The only difference here is that in 2.0 you also had to increase your overall fighting ability (your attack and defense) and those also cost 2 points per advancement so overall? Not really.

Wait, so now ATK and DEF aren't bought anymore? I must have missed that when I looked over the character sheet that you posted. How do you determine them, then? I see that you've bought 'Unarmed Combat' as a skill, but that's an attack. Is your damage rank (12) now also your attack rank? Are you not able to raise your defenses, or is it just split between Dodge and Parry?


OK lemme explain here.

Fighting is your basic attacking. It's also your basic melee defense. Raising your fighting ability raises your parry defense to it's rank and also makes it that rank for all of your melee and ranged attacks.

So if you have fighting 12, you get a +12 to parry defense and a +12 to attacking. Get it?

Oh, I get it, now. Thanks!

Wait a second.

The Artist Formally Known as Shirou

I think that I know you.


Nah, I think you'll find that he's changed a bit.

Seriously, though. Shirou is the guy that got me into Mutants and Masterminds like two years ago.

OP here. After having had a chance to read through the .pdf version of the book, I have to say that I'm impressed.

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