>First one:
Eh, that's not so bad.
>Dubstep one:
Excuse me, I need to go gouge out my ears with a Lance of Longinus...

(I prefer the original.)

KOMM SUSSER TODD INDEED
That second fucking version makes me want to start the Third Impact.

I really hope these don't end up getting used in Rebuild 3 or 4.

blech.

And further, I don't think I shall ever understand Dubstep's appeal.

>>73343

Regardless, I would hardly call three ringing notes "dubstep."

This thread does seem like a good chance to discuss Eva,

>>73362
My favorite part was when Shinji whined.

Eva thread? I can dig it.

So, the Rebuild movies. Your opinions on them?

I like them so far, though I hate that Asuka has barely any presence. I know they've been criticized for not having the same vibe as the original NGE, but it's important to remember that the first half of the original series was basically all action as well. I'm expecting 3.0 and 4.0 to dive deep into the psychedelic trip factor that was in the later half of the series.

>>73379

I don't like them just as standalone movies (except for the awesome soundtrack) but they're a nice supplement to the anime series. I think of them as being the high-budget, WTF-inducing, visual tour-de-force that the series would have been had they had much of a budget at all and modern CGI. Otherwise, they're rushed and not nearly as deeply satisfying as watching the series.

It's like a sweet, delicious dessert after a filling dinner. Kaworu can be the cherry on top.

I think it's getting a little better, though, since 3.0 and 4.0 promise to be pretty much completely original storylinesn after things went from predictable to totally-off-the-rails in 2.0. (And I'm pretty sure it's all somehow a weird "sequel" to the series and End, also.)

>>73390

Someone post that "Rebuild is actually a sequel to EoE" image for this.

I'm re-watching the original series right now, and I can't believe how many great little moments I've completely forgotten about. The details are really what makes this show so good.

pic related, I thought this whole moment with Kensuke looked really pretty.

>>73393
Is there still anyone who DOESN'T think the Rebuild movies are some kind of sequel? How?

>>73395

That too. I REALLY miss the character development for Ritsuko, Kensuke, Touji (who doesn't even get to pilot this time around), Hikari, Fuyutsuki, and the Three Stooges in the NERV HQ (Aoba, Hyuuga, Maya). It made it seem a lot less than the entire world is revolving around Shinji and whatever he does.

Then again... supposing this IS a sequel (and Kaworu is going around willfully violating this rebooted-universe's fourth-wall) perhaps it literally IS constructed completely around — and for the benefit of — one Shinji Ikari. For all we know, this entire thing might be going on in his own mind as he tries to (subconsciously) figure out just where the heck he went wrong in his time piloting the Evas, and what he could have done differently to prevent the End of The World. Naturally, this being Shinji (and a Gainax production...) all his efforts have been making things WORSE, but still.

>>73417
>That too. I REALLY miss the character development for Ritsuko, Kensuke, Touji (who doesn't even get to pilot this time around), Hikari, Fuyutsuki, and the Three Stooges in the NERV HQ (Aoba, Hyuuga, Maya).

Just another reason Rebuild needs to be taken as a supplement instead of a stand alone series. We already know those characters so it isn't TOO big of a deal, but someone who only watches Rebuild is missing out on a lot.

And hey, did it really bug anyone else that Kensuke basically disappears from the show after Touji is hospitalized? It felt like that would have been the time to focus on him the most what with everything that happened to his friends, but I don't think we ever even see him after that. I'm not saying they should have dedicated an episode to him or anything, but just a proper send off and some closure would have been nice.

>>73393
Here you go.

>>73428
So is the theory that not only is the story some kind of Endless Eight thing, but that Kaworu is always the previous cycle's Shinji still a thing?

>Kaworu is always the previous cycle's Shinji

I have never heard this before.

. . . It sounds like a really stupid theory.

>>73379
I like that all the characters are a re-imagining; familiar but different. I especially like that Shinji reacts to certain situations differently, like getting angry and threatening to kick NERV HQ into dust after the Bardiel fight, or choosing to fight Zeruel to save the girl he loves rather than to save everyone. Even Misato shouts "Do it for yourself, not for anyone else!"

The battle are spectacular. Skipping "Both of You, Dance Like You Want to Win" makes me sad. The sexual fanservice is annoying but ignorable. I'm pretty hyped for the next two movies.

>>73430
I think it was based on Kaworu calling Gendo "Father." Also the attached image, which may be reaching but no more so than the other stuff I guess.

>>73379
That scene with naked Asuka is the randomest thing about the movie.

Everything else is pretty good.

>>73430
It is a stupid theory, but then Eva's a breeding ground for DEEPfag bullshit like that. Nobody can every accept it's just another dumb robot show with ANGST on top.

>>73437
Man, don't be an asshole. Coming up with theories about what's happening doesn't mean anyone thinks it's deep, it just means some people think it's fun to try and guess plot twists ahead of time. People did the same thing for Harry Potter for crissakes.

The fact that it is just another dumb super robot show doesn't mean there is not a plot about which you can make guesses as to how it will turn out.

>>73435
Huh, that's a bit of detail I missed. That's interesting.

>>73435

Very interesting. I thought that there was something different going on with the Evas this time around. Seeing how it seems anyone can sync with any Eva, I suspected they might not certain person's mother's souls in them. Otherwise, there would be no way in hell Mari could have synced with Unit 02; the only reason Kaworu could in the series was because he was hax due to being an angel.

Following End, however, Unit 01 (the original...) was left floating adrift out of the solar system along with the original Lance of Longinus. Supposing it was somehow retrieved and brought back along with the lance (which was shown being moved on the moonbase, and later spearing Shinji and Rei in mid-deification) does that mean that Yui's soul is still in the dang thing? Sheesh.

Also would explain why Shinji is the one who went "berserk" against Zeruel. Mommy wasn't in there to do it for him, this time.

>>73441
>>73442
If Rebuild Kaworu is Shinji from the past iteration, why can't Mari be old Asuka? It would explain her ability to pilot 02.

In my headcanon, the original NGE series and EoE is Ocarina of Time and the Rebuild movies are Majora's Mask.

>>73446
That actually makes a pretty good amount of sense.

It also makes me want to see the creepy moon face photoshopped onto Rei for some reason.

>>73447
HA! Someone do it now!

>>73428
I have to say, this is convincing. Mostly the new second impact imagery wich independently it could be just a new aestethic choice but togheter, it raises questions.

One thing that I did noticed is what it seems a pretty big new thing in the plot.
In both 1.0 and 2.0 a lot of characters continue to mention that there is some sort of deal/contract/promise that was done with Lilith herself, I think at least Seele, Gendo an Misato said it and remember that in the end of 1.0 it seems everyone knows Lilith is held bellow Nerv, instead of being fooled into thinking its Adam or just don't know.

And in 1.0 Gendo and Fuyutsuki say that a literal part of their plan is to get Shinji to become 'closer' with Rei, next thing that happens is Shinji is commisioned to give Rei her new ID. And you know whose soul is inside her.

>Gendo and Fuyutsuki say that a literal part of their plan is to get Shinji to become 'closer' with Rei.

That's weird. In End, the reason Rei went and hijacked Instrumentality from Gendo's control (taking Adam and his hand and not allowing him to see Yui) was because she had gotten close to Shinji and had gained a semblance of independance. I would think that what they would want the most is to keep her an emotionless doll that follows orders without question.

>>73463
Things are different this time around. I'd go so far as to say we can't really assume that anything from the original is true that hasn't been stated as true in Rebuild yet.

HEY GUYS! TALKIN BOUT EVA?
HOW ABOUT ONE OF MY FAVORITE DOUJIN OF ALL TIME?

Re-Take of Evangelion

Shinji wakes up in the hospital after the Dirac Sea thing but with the memories of the events of the rest of the series and End. He decides to change things. Shit of course goes nuts.

It was orignially an H doujin but they compiled the several parts (1,2,3,0,4,After) into 3 clean vollumes

http://g.e-hentai.org/g/168983/6804adbfc2/
http://g.e-hentai.org/g/168986/4232a35943/
http://g.e-hentai.org/g/168987/e3fbed9cf1/?p=9

Again, despite the name of the site, this version is clean.

>>73488
I can link you guys the "unclean" ones from fakku if you want.
Also High5!

>>73491
Really its not worth it in my opinion. Kinda Type-Moonish in its usage of sex. Basically it was there to make it more popular. Although them having sex it critical to the story.

On the other hand, sex in one of Studio Kimabuchi's other works, Negimaru, is very important. And also terrifying. Very terrifying.

The theory that somehow the'res a cycle in Evangelion that keeps repeating is silly when you consider the larger backstory given, in which Angels and humans are just the products of hyper advanced aliens, and can be found on a bajillion planets.
Thus it stands to reason time manipulation is not within their power or the universe would be fucked.
Though it could be a dream/illusion Shiji is experiencing.

>>73539
Ugh, seriously? Aliens?

I'm not sure why I'm surprised though, Eva was always awful with backstory, setting, and plot. Great handling of character, mood, and atmosphere, but everything else is just kinda fuzzy.

I mean, 90% of the main plot just consists of buzzwords: SEELE, Instrumentality, S2 engine, AT field, Adam, Lilith, etc... The show does a terrible job of explaining why these things are important and what's at stake, so the viewer is just confused at important moments.

>>73541
Aliens or gods, depending how you want to look at it. Under the surface Eva's sort of a Cosmic Horror story.

>>73542
I agree, giant Rei was Cosmic, and Horrifying.

But I'm still not sold on the aliens. When you have things called Angels and Lilim that sprang from Adam and Lilith, you're already connecting the story to Bible myth. I mean, why bring aliens into it at all?

And that's not even that bad, I can appreciate that they were trying to make things clearer by saying "aliens did it." At least it's a (crappy) explanation.

The problem is that there didn't seem to be any rules to the world. Why the fuck is Shinji so special? The Angels had to be stopped from getting into Terminal Dogma, or the world would end... How? Why the hell did SEELE want instrumentality to happen (I get why Gendo wanted it-like I said, Eva is good with character.)? Why the deception with Adam/Lilith? How the hell did Gendo have a little Adam fetus in his hand at the end? Why was the Lance important? How did SEELE make copies of it? Why did the MP Eva's stab themselves? What's an AT field?

The viewer should know SOMETHING about the "how" and "why" of the story, enough so that he can intuitively understand the consequences of a character's action. Otherwise, there's no tension, only confusion.

And if you have to tell fans "aliens did it," and don't even put that information into the actual show, then something has gone wrong.

>>73543

I'll try to answer some of these with how I see it.

>Why the fuck is Shinji so special?
His mother is inside Unit 01, which is the only unit which can merge with Lilith and begin Instrumentality.


>The Angels had to be stopped from getting into Terminal Dogma, or the world would end... How?
An angel merging with Lilith (who is housed in Terminal Dogma) would also cause Third Impact.


>Why the hell did SEELE want instrumentality to happen ... ?
Basically, they want to uplift humanity into perfection by causing all souls to merge into one consciousness so there is no more pain.


>Why the deception with Adam/Lilith?
Not sure, but I think it had something to do with the fact that most of the characters (and the audience) thought it WAS Adam. It wasn't until Kaworu went down there and said, "Hey, what gives?" that everyone finds out otherwise.


>How the hell did Gendo have a little Adam fetus in his hand at the end?
I think it was in the director's cut of episode (I can't remember the number). After blowing himself up in Second Impact, Adam was reduced to an embryo, and Kaji stole it and delivered it to Gendo so he could be in control of Instrumentality. Kaji was on board the aircraft carrier along with Unit 02 with it when the angel attacked, which was WHY the angel attacked — it was drawn to Adam.


>Why was the Lance important?
I think it was an original artifact left behind along with Adam and the Geofront. The stupid humans poked Adam with it repeatedly until he got pissed off and went kaboom. It is necessary to start Third Impact in a similar way.


>How did SEELE make copies of it?
I have no idea, but I suspect hax was involved. (They were imperfect copies, anyway.)


>Why did the MP Eva's stab themselves?
A more important question is why did they have orgasms while doing it... (Probably as some kind of sacrament; not sure on the Christian symbolism thereof.)


>What's an AT field?
I thought of it as twofold. First is as a representation of the Ego Barrier in the mind, which is what keeps a person himself. The more common usage in the series is as a physical manifestation of an energy which literally holds living beings together, like a metaphysical balloon around water. When the AT Field goes away, the body pops into Tang.


Keep in mind, the first time I watched End, I had no idea what the heck was going on. It was like a vaguely pleasent acid-trip after about halfway through. It wasn't until I read the Red Cross Book and some other supplementary materials that I was able to start making sense of what was going on.

However, it's a very loose and indeterminate plotline, filled with tiny tidbits of information that make you think, but which do not tell you HOW to think. I firmly believe that this is intentional (rather than due to laziness) to allow each individual to come up for himself what the MEANING of it all is.

>>73543
>The problem is that there didn't seem to be any rules to the world. Why the fuck is Shinji so special? The Angels had to be stopped from getting into Terminal Dogma, or the world would end... How? Why the hell did SEELE want instrumentality to happen (I get why Gendo wanted it-like I said, Eva is good with character.)? Why the deception with Adam/Lilith? How the hell did Gendo have a little Adam fetus in his hand at the end? Why was the Lance important? How did SEELE make copies of it? Why did the MP Eva's stab themselves? What's an AT field?

Keep in mind this is all from memory and I might be hazy on some of it, but in essence:

Shinji wasn't really special in and of himself so much as because he was connected to the most important players in the chess game--Gendo and Yui Ikari, and he and Rei were the most important pawns in said game. Yui's mothering instinct made his Eva more protective of him than Asuka's was of her, and when Eva-01 got the S2 engine, it basically became an Angel in and of itself.

The reason they couldn't let the angels get into Terminal Dogma was because that's where they were keeping Lillith and Adam, and with access to those, the Angels would set off Instrumentality--but instead of Human Instrumentality, it would've been Angel Instrumentality. Humans and Angels are essentially the same thing, both having descended from the halves of the Godhead that all of local life was combined into before it got split by the Lance of Longinus. Which were, as I recall, essentially Adam and Lillith. Angels descended from one, Humans from the other. Which is why humanity (all of humanity) was considered one of the Angels in and of itself.

Most of the world did not want Instrumentality, since it's essentially the apocalypse. SEELE wanted Instrumentality because 1.) it was essentially seen to be unavoidable--the only question was whether it would be Angels or Humans who got Instrumental 2.) they thought they could become gods by doing it. Publicly, and as far as most of NERV was concerned, they were attempting to prevent apocalypse. Privately, SEELE was trying to bring about the "good" apocalypse.

For the Adam fetus, I'm pretty sure they were attempting to clone Adam from the bit of him that Kaji retrieved for him when Asuka joined.

The Lance was a weapon that could pierce anything. It comes from the legends of the Spear of Destiny that was used to pierce Jesus on the cross, as wielded by the Roman soldier Longinus--actually, it and Keel being the Wandering Jew are the only genuinely Christian things I recall from Eva, since the vast majority of it is more kaballistic or gnostic than Christian.

AT Fields are essentially the manifestation of the Porcupine's Dilemma--they're the fear of intimacy with others that stops people from ever getting too close to one another. With Angels (and Eva) they can be manipulated and used to form force fields. With humans they're all that keeps all of humanity from merging into a giant blob of LCL.

Man, Eva is full of stuff. I don't know if it should be called symbolism since it doesn't seem to symbolize anything, and most of it seems superfluous to the story itself....I guess you could call it world building?

>>73543

>why is Shinji so special?

His mom's soul was absorbed into Eva unit 01, which is why only he can pilot it. Everything about Shinji's role stems from that, which is what makes Mari from the Rebuilds so interesting. She piloted unit 02, and if they're sticking to their own internal lore, that means she's either an angel or yet another Yui clone.

>Angels in Terminal Dogma would end the world...how?

Angels merging with Lillith would trigger the Third Impact, but in their own image, which means wiping out all life derived from Lillith (i.e., mass extinction of all human life, not the tang kind).

>SEELE

This one still confuses me. SEELE's primary goal was the Human Instrumentality project, to erase the barriers between people and end lonliness etc etc. This is pretty much referring to Third Impact, so I'm not sure why they spent so much time, effort, and money on the Eva projects instead of just letting Gendo do his hand thing with Adam.

>why was the Lance important?

The Lance of Longinus is the only weapon that can pierce A.T. fields. I am unsure as to whether or not it is conscious, EoE pretty much confused the shit out of me about it.

>why did the MP Evas stab themselves?

Piercing their cores = dying = releasing their energy to trigger the Third Impact. They made this way more apparent in the Rebuild movies, if you haven't checked those out yet.

>What's an A.T. field?

Anti-Terror field. Plot-wise? It's the projected consciousness of the user in the form of a shield that can only be penetrated by an other's A.T. field. Backdrop speculation? Anno was really into Freud while drumming this up, and if you go through Freud's literature he talks a lot about how our interaction with the physical world and emotional word are actually disconnected and independent. So basically, whenever one of the kids is in an Eva and powers it on, they separate onto some planar dimension where the physical and emotional whatever shit collide and their A.T. fields protect them from whatever or something. So all that hype about Asuka being mindraped? They did the same thing to the angels every time they pierced an A.T. field.

>backstory, Ancestral Race alien thing

I don't know where this comes from. I've seen all the TV episodes, EoE, and both rebuilds. Is it from a comic or book or something? People speak of this like it is canon but I've never seen or heard of it directly.

>>73548
I think it's from some info book, like how a lot of Nasuverse lore is from Character Material/Zero Material/Etc.

>>73548
>>73547
>>73546
Good explanations, which can all be gleaned from viewing the show multiple times. They purposely paced the story so you can go back an episode or two, re-view a scene that didn't make sense at the time and figure out what's going on with new info. Also: No, I don't think the anime ever mentions aliens. I have no idea where that came from. Asuka and Shinji even talk about why Angels, messengers of God, would be attacking them in one episode.

According to wiki, it's from one of the games, NGE2.

Note: A.T. Field = Absolute Terror Field, my bad.

Right, original guy with all the questions here.

They were mostly rhetorical, I knew most of that stuff before posting those questions. Although, damn, you guys know a lot. Thanks!

But when I watched the series for the first time, I knew almost none of it until I started researching on the internet. The problem isn't that there are no answers. The problem is that the answers aren't presented in a way that's helpful to the story.

I'm not sure I knew that Shinji's mom was Unit 1. Asuka's mom being Unit 2 I got in EoE.

I didn't know anything about the Lance other than "it can pierce stuff and kill angels and shit."

Until EoE I only knew AT fields as the cool force fields that Angels and Evas fight with. I think the explanation about their true nature was thrown into the narration somewhere when everybody was being turned into Tang.

I knew Instrumentality was bad or maybe good, inevitable or maybe not, and that various people wanted to control it.

I knew Rei was a clone, but not why she was so important. I'm actually still confused about why Rei gave control of Instrumentality to Shinji when that version wasn't close to him. The Rei that was killed by the Angel was friends with Shinji, the new one didn't have that connection.



Anyway, it doesn't seem like good storytelling (at least to me) to still be giving exposition about the nature of Instrumentality as it's happening. It's supposed to be the climax, the most important moment for Shinji, Asuka, and Rei. But it can't illuminate their characters if we don't know what the fuck is happening. When Shinji makes the choice to stay on that beach with Asuka, and accept pain and individuality, the moment should be powerfully cathartic. We should want to clap and say "congratulations!" But the only thing going through my mind was "?????????????????"

>>73558

It most definitely does not lend itself to standard plot development, that's for sure.

>>73558
>>73550
>They purposely paced the story so you can go back an episode or two, re-view a scene that didn't make sense at the time and figure out what's going on with new info.

The plot is purposely opaque. If it were unintentional, it would definitely be bad storytelling; for most stories, conveyance is a top priority because confusion is offputting. In NGE's case though, they WANTED the audience to be confused for a time. Whether or not it served NGE's story well to do that is debatable. I personally think they overdid it. It could have worked much better with less obfuscation.

I know it doesn't seem like it, because I spent a lot of time saying the plot sucks, but I really like the show; the characters are fascinating.

I just wish the story was better structured to support the character arcs.

>>73558

>I'm not sure I knew that Shinji's mom was Unit 1.

That wasn't said directly, but it was so heavily implied that you'd have to be trying very hard to miss it. Especially when Shinji says stuff like the cockpit smells like blood but it feels comforting; he literally met (or possibly hallucinated) his mother embracing him just as life support gave out while he was inside Leliel; and Yui was stated to have disappeared in an experiment with Unit 01.


>Until EoE I only knew AT fields as the cool force fields that Angels and Evas fight with. I think the explanation about their true nature was thrown into the narration somewhere when everybody was being turned into Tang.

If I remember correctly, when Shinji was fighting Kaworu and Unit 02 while going down to Terminal Dogma, his knife slipped and was stopped by Kaworu's AT Field. Kaworu referred to it as "the light of his soul", and something like "the sacred space where no one else can enter", which was vague as hell, but at least hinted at it being something more than a magical force-field and something both rooted in psychology and something which everyone posessed to some degree.


>When Shinji makes the choice to stay on that beach with Asuka, and accept pain and individuality, the moment should be powerfully cathartic.

At that point, I was kinda with Asuka: "How disgusting..." I wasn't sure exactly what to expect (considering the last two episodes of the series!) or what I should have been expecting given the rest of the movie, but it wasn't either at ALL. With End, there isn't so much of a conclusion as an ending, if you get what I mean. I never feel any sort of catharsis or satisfaction; at most I feel uncomfortable and upset, left with more questions than answers, and really REALLY wishing I had someone to hold me... which might be what I'm supposed to feel (in which case it's brilliantly well-done to be able to manipulate my emotions and turn me into a depressed, antsy Shinji) but I'm not sure.

>>73561
To be perfectly honest, I agree.

Eva is my favorite show. I love the characters for being so well done. I love how great the show is at cinematography and framing. I love how trippy and surreal some parts of the show are. I love how SOME of the symbolism actually is pretty damn deep. I REALLY LOVE the introspective moments when we see inside of a character's mind to find out about what their issues are.

But the way the plot is explained? Pretty bad. I think the fact that you can't find all necessary information in the show itself, and that you need to play a game THAT WAS NEVER EVEN RELEASED OVER HERE to understand what happens is ridiculous.

The weird thing though is that even though it is poorly done, the plot being so confusing is probably part of why Eva is so successful. People still talk about this series years after it ended (it'd still be talked about even without Rebuild), and I think a big part of that is how invested the fans have had to become to get what goes on in the show. It also makes opinions on the show very polarized, and that gets people who haven't seen it curious enough to check it out.

Obviously there is a down side to it, and I don't really like it, but I definitely think the confusing plot was a very big part of why Eva became so big. What do you guys think?

>>73558
>Until EoE I only knew AT fields as the cool force fields that Angels and Evas fight with. I think the explanation about their true nature was thrown into the narration somewhere when everybody was being turned into Tang.

That bit of exposition was given just after third impact when Shinji was talking to Rei in the infinite orange abyss of togetherness.

>I knew Rei was a clone, but not why she was so important. I'm actually still confused about why Rei gave control of Instrumentality to Shinji when that version wasn't close to him. The Rei that was killed by the Angel was friends with Shinji, the new one didn't have that connection.

The Rei clone had the memories of the previous one. She might not have FELT close to Shinji, but she KNEW that she was close to Shinji.

Rei was always kind of emotionally retarded, and getting moved to a new clone body seemed to reset the progress she had made as Rei 2. Only knowing what she thinks she feels and what she thinks she should feel, instead of actually feeling her emotions, is the norm for Rei. With all this in mind and I think her decision makes sense.

>When Shinji makes the choice to stay on that beach with Asuka, and accept pain and individuality, the moment should be powerfully cathartic. We should want to clap and say "congratulations!"

I don't think it is meant to be cathartic though. Trying to get close to others while keeping our own identity means that we'll always have fear of rejection. We have to accept pain and suffering in order to exist. That isn't meant to be celebrated.

Living with suffering sucks, but our only choices are to accept it or to die. That is what I think the ultimate message of EoE is. Of course, this is just my take on things. I'm not claiming to have definitive answers about what all the stuff in Eva means, it's all left too open for interpretation for that.

>>73563
＞The weird thing though is that even though it is poorly done, the plot being so confusing is probably part of why Eva is so successful. People still talk about this series years after it ended (it'd still be talked about even without Rebuild), and I think a big part of that is how invested the fans have had to become to get what goes on in the show.
Well yeah. People like a puzzle. The thing is, Eva's puzzle was largely because of poor communication on the part of the authors. They were very lucky to stumble onto the correct level of crypticness and intrigue to make people WANT to figure it out--most people using the same tactic would run into an audience that just doesn't care.

As far as that goes, I would never, ever, ever suggest to someone working on a new project to emulate Eva in those regards, even though in Eva's very specific case it won over its own audience.

>>73561

This is probably exactly why I couldn't stand Eva: I hated all the characters whose names were not Misato or Pen-Pen or Gendou but only when he was being a huge dick (which was I guess all the time?). And the show tried really hard to make me hate Misato too, towards the end.

Their character arcs and issues might have been fantastically portrayed but it didn't matter if I thought Shinji was a selfish asshole, Asuka the avatar of all my least favorite female anime character archetypes, and Rei a big fat nothingburger right out of the gate.

(That and the endless, minute long spans of nothing fucking happening. They can claim that was artistic all they like, but I call bullshit: that was pure budget)

>>73570
The thing about Eva characters is that they are meant to be realistic, not necessarily likable. That so many people can hate them so much (because of who the character is, not because of how they are used or portrayed) just means to me that they were really well done.

>That and the endless, minute long spans of nothing fucking happening. They can claim that was artistic all they like, but I call bullshit: that was pure budget

Yeah the pauses with nothing happening were bullshit. No argument there.

>>73574

The thing is, though, those aren't mutually exclusive things. YOu can have sympathetic and relateable characters who are horrible people and are socially crippled by their neuroses. But the show just generated such an intense antipathy in me for Shinji and Asuka, and Rei was a big fat fucking nothing. I just couldn't care about them at all, and in a character driven show I'd say that qualifies as a pretty stark failure (as far as my experience with it is concerned)

>>73576
>The thing is, though, those aren't mutually exclusive things.

Honestly I think if a character is realistic enough then there will always be someone who hates them.

>YOu can have sympathetic and relateable characters who are horrible people and are socially crippled by their neuroses.

There are people who relate to and sympathize with the characters from Eva. Just not everyone, which in this case I consider a good thing.

If the characters had been made with the intention of being sympathetic to everyone, the entire message of the show would have to have been changed. If they were made to be sympathetic, then the characters would have been victims of circumstance. However, even though each character's upbringing is PARTIALLY responsible for the way they are and gives the audience understanding on how they became that way, each character only has themselves to blame for their problems.

Shinji is selfish. Shinji is spineless when it comes to interacting with others. He could have changed himself at any time, and on some level he knew that he should have. But he didn't. Asuka was a bitch. She knew how not to be a bitch and could have changed herself at any time. But she didn't.

The characters' problems are all of their own volition. This is what stops them from being sympathetic and makes them so detestable to a lot of people, but it's also what makes them all so real. Most people with a lot of problems are responsible for those problems themselves. Shinji knew he wasn't sympathetic which is why he hated himself so much. Acknowledging that all of his problems were on him, and then forcing himself to change, is what the revelation of the final episode was all about.

Now, I'm not saying you were wrong to dislike the characters or the show. I'm just saying that the characters couldn't have been made to be sympathetic without altering the whole point of the show in the process. For that reason I don't consider the characters being unlikable to a lot of people to be a fault.

>>73570

What I always found interesting about the characters is that they are realistic to a fault, and you usually don't see that in media. Shinji and Asuka are very much typical teenagers with typical faults and personality defects and neuroses. Unfortunately for them, they hold the fate of the world in their hands, so the stakes are a lot higher when they fuck up. Whereas for a normal teenager, fucking up just means getting grounded or maybe spending a few hours in a jail cell thinking about what they've done. I think it fascinates people to ask what kind of person THEY were like when they were teenagers, and what kind of things they would have done if they had been in Shinji's or Asuka's shoes. If they're honest, they'll probably realize it's very close to the same thing.

It's sort of like when I watch documentary programs about very young children who ended up in jail. I know I did some pretty horrible things when I was a selfish, stupid child, and I was lucky enough to not have it become something greater. It's frightening and humbling to realize that I was just a step or two further in the wrong direction of choice or even luck from being one of those kids who are spending their youth or even their lives in prison.

I was a lot like Shinji when I was 14. I like to think of myself as having a strong will and stable personality, but that's partially due to a young adulthood learning how to build up my defenses. Back then, I was weak and whiny and lonely too, and I would have collapsed under the weight of the world if it had been placed on my shoulders. Almost everyone else would have; and those that hate Eva are just the ones who don't want to admit that they were (and possibly still are) weak and pathetic.

There is some pretty good discussion going on in this thread.

I would just like to take a moment to thank you /jam/, for being so, so much better than /a/. Seeing actual good discussion about anime for once is refreshing.

>>73595

Or, you know, people who don't think one way or another but don't think it makes a very compelling story as told.

Also, guys, Shinji and Asuka are realistic depictions but they're not realistic depictions of your average teenager. They're realistic depictions of seriously fucked up teenagers, and I don't mean that they're fucked up by the pressures put on them, they were fucked up right out of the gate and the pressure and insanity just piled on top of that. Of course people like that exist, but you should be really careful about generalizing them to everybody's case.

>Almost everyone else would have; and those that hate Eva are just the ones who don't want to admit that they were (and possibly still are) weak and pathetic.

Oh come on. Eva is my favorite show but there are plenty of legitimate reasons for people to hate it.

>>73603
I think everyone knows that Shinji and Asuka are very, VERY extreme cases. However, their behaviors and underlying symptoms are still very common in people. Just to a MUCH lesser extent.

>>73603

When introduced in the series, they were suffering from problems already, true, but those still had their root causes in the plot of the series; ie: all or part of their mothers got sucked up into an Eva.

That was the reason Asuka was lonely and a bitch.
That was the reason Shinji was lonely and meek.
That was the reason Gendo was lonely and a standoffish jerk (which also contributed to Shinji's problems).
That was the reason Rei EXISTED.

You can't just say they were born that way and thus some other type of human that YOU definately wouldn't be like. In their early childhoods, they were very happy and rather normal.

>>73610

Yes. But when you say that people who don't like the show or characters don't want to admit that they'd suck just as hard in Shinji and Asuka's situation, what you are normalizing their experience to all cases. I can quite confidently say that if I had been asked to pilot an Eva when I was a teenager, I would have handled it (mentally, of course, the actual piloting is irrelevant) much better than Shinji did. So would you, most likely. So would most everyone, because most people don't come with Shinji's neurotic self-loathing baked in.

You can say that I might if I'd had my mom sucked into an Rva and Gendou for a father, and maybe that's true but that's pretty irrelevant because I would be a totally different person if those things had happened to me. That's life-defining shit, yo.

Which leads me to a complain I have about the series that I've had for a long time but couldn't put into words until just now: the whole thing is deconstructing the genre, deliberately highlighting how fucked up the effects of being thrust into the cockpit of a world saving mecha would be. And it WOULD be fucked up, when I say that I would have done better than Shinji I don't mean it would be a walk in the park. But by subjecting extreme case characters into the roles of protagonist, characters who were badly fucked up before the series even began, I think they limited the validity of the writing experiment. It just feels like taking the cheap ad easy way of writing it.

>>73616

>that last part

Isn't that the whole point of Asuka's character?

>>73617
By what definition is Asuka normal?

>>73617

If you think Asuka was normal before stepping into an Eva's cockpit you need to review her episodes. Her issues manifested in very different ways from Shinji's but she was if anything MORE fucked up than him.

>>73616
I can see where you're coming from.

Honestly I don't really look at Eva as a deconstruction. Sure those elements are there but they take a backseat to the more important introspective character-driven aspects. Having extreme case characters helps the later at the expense of the former. I'd say the creators knew what their priorities for the show were and made the right decision.

The deconstructive aspects of Eva are all pretty shallow, so your point still stands. I just think the psychological symbolism is more important than the anime symbolism, and I evaluate the show as such.

I think praising a show for being deconstructive is kind of vapid anyway, as anyone can easily point out common stuff in fiction that is actually silly when you apply it to reality. I don't get why so many fans compliment Eva for this.

>>73620

Not the "normal" part, the part about performance as a pilot.

Actually that's interrelated. I did not read your whole post, but now I am curious if there is a series out there that has done what you mentioned.

inb4 Infinite Stratos that show was CRAP

The songs in OP's post are pretty bad.

Here, have a good Eva remix to wash out the bad taste.

A Cruel Angel's Thesis 2009 VER

Have a BETTER eva remix

Cruel Angels Slam - Quad City …

>>73654

One thing is sure, Eva's backstory is NOT aliens.

>>73677
But it is, Adam and Lilith are beings designed to spawn Angels/Humans and terraform the planet for THEIR living purposes. That's what the impacts are.
Both type of life seeds crashed on earth, and Adamn went in lock down via the Lance of Longinus since only one of them is allowed to fulfill their mission if both land on a planet.
Humans unsealed Adamn, he began terraforming the planet for Angel life, spawned the Angels, and got sealed back.
But if you'd like, you can pretend ''gods'' send Adam and Lilith. Any sufficiently advanced technology etc etc.

Oh God what.

>>73678

>citation needed
Dude, stop pulling thing out of your ass.

>>73692
http://wiki.evageeks.org/First_Ancestral_Race

>>73693
>a fan-made wiki
>"This article or section does not cite any references or sources."

>>73737
Not sure if trolling.
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Classified_Information_(Translation)
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Classified_Information_(Japanese)
http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/3790/NGE2-Classified-Information/
http://wiki.evageeks.org/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion_Proposal

Yes, the "canonicity" of stuff like this is generally a very, uh, debatable matter, what with the information coming from a set of video games, but you'd have to be seriously paranoid to assume that it is some kind of overly elaborate hoax.

>>73738

But that's what I'm saying, it's obviously no hoax but it's from a videogame. People shoudn't treat it like canon.

>>73742
The company shouldn't have put it out then.

>>73742
Why are you getting so asshurt about this? It's not that far fetched for the explanation to Eva being aliens.

>>73745
I thought it was literally explained in a canon side-story manga thing that the "angels" are really aliens and SEELE are fucking dumbasses who just made everything up.

>>73742
>People shoudn't treat it like canon.
Aaand that's the problem right there. It's that whole Star Wars can of bullshit worms all over again, except with not quite as many writers.
It all kinda boils down to what you consider "canon", doesn't it?
If you say "It's canon if it appears in the original", then yeah, it's probably not.
If you say "It's canon if it appears in official material", then it is.
If you say "It's canon if it's in the the original writer's idea of the eva universe", well, that's when it gets a little harder to figure out. Because Anno was apparently at the very least involved in the writing process of that game. The fan wiki thing has this to say on the matter:
>It is generally considered a cornerstone of supplemental canon for the influx of new information it provides and given a great deal of weight due to Hideaki Anno's participation in the game's production. Taking discrepancies in security access into account (e.g., it requires a higher clearance level to learn that the white giant is Lilith rather than Adam), the information appears to reconcile fully with the show.
And the google translated version of the japanese wikipedia page for the game says this:
> Settings and the world of Evangelion, the mystery surrounding it has been documented, the list goes filled with sensitive information that you obtain the information. This mystery has been summarized from an interview of director Hideaki Anno, has been recorded in the supervision of Gainax. Often content to sign, such as had been mentioned in books Basically, such as initial setting. By the character, in some cases to collect more than a certain condition of this scenario has become clear.
Which, while somewhat cryptic, does seem to point in the same direction.

>>73748
I'd love a download link to that, if available...

Btw, is there any prediction for the end of the manga on Japan? Ha it ended? The last volume released in country made it seem like it was about to end in the next one.

Forget all the haters (critics welcome though).

Rebuild is frackin' amazing. We get actual character development instead of mere character exposition. People moving forward (albeit with painful consequences) instead of just languishing in their own emotional filth. Sure not all the characters have been given their due as of yet, but those that have, have been given a bonafide 5-star treatment.

Also, though I doubt there's enough of his mom's DNA left to even make her a relation what with all the Angel genes in her:

Shinji/Rei FTW

>>73752
I was getting some serious TTGL vibes from Shinji in Rebuild.
Especially since Eva 01 doesn't seem to go berserk, rather Shinji just wills the fucking thing up. Then that whole scene where he apparently dives into the angel and drags her out.

>>73753
Which is part of why Shinji in Rebuild is more likeable. He's still scared, self-centered, childish, depressed, reclusive, has his daddy issues, and is ultimately a huge antihero (not the 90's "kind of a villain doing good" antihero, but the "decidedly-non-super" version), but we're not stuck wondering why we're rooting for him. He's gone from "Worthless puddle of crybaby" to "flawed underdog."

>>73754

How in the world did you get "villian doing good" for Shinji in the series?? If anything he was "designated-protagonist getting dragged into the plot and occasionally doing good".

>>73806

>not the 90's "kind of a villain doing good" antihero, but the "decidedly-non-super" version
>not

>>73806
What Ninja said. I was saying that Shinji in Rebuild has upgraded to what TV Tropes would call a Type-I Antihero.

>This was actually the original understanding of the term, a character who is a protagonist but lacks the qualities of the hero as seen by the Greeks (probably closest to the Tragic Hero). See Unfazed Everyman and This Loser Is You for related concepts. A Type I may transform into a full hero over the course of the story if they manage to overcome their inner demons, discover their courage, find their reason to fight, etc. Whether or not this happens is heavily dependent on the story's placement in the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism; a Type I Antihero in an even slightly idealistic story is all but guaranteed to find true heroism by the end, whereas a Type I in a more cynical setting is much less likely.

Thing is, we don't know where Rebuild is on the Idealism-versus-Cynicism scale yet. It seems to be more idealistic than the original thus far, but it's entirely possible, maybe even likely, that they're setting us up to go even darker by the end. So who knows what Shinji's fate is going to be at this point?

what're the odds of a gainix'd ending vs. everyone happy alltime congradurations love festival?

>>73940

A Gainax Ending is any ending that comes out of nowhere and makes you scratch your head. Both the ending to the series and End qualify for that.

But given the greater mass-market appeal of the Rebuild series, I'd bet on it being a more traditional, easy-to-understand ending.

>>73940

I have been told that the 4th Rebuild movie is an entirely new take on the ending, so (if what I heard is true) we can safely expect EoE to be the basis of comparison.

>>73940
>>73944
>>73941
I'd be down with the 4th movie just being Shinji and Asuka dicking around in the aftermath of EoE. Exploring ruins, finding stuff, taking in the scenery, waiting for more people to walk out of the Tang...

Sorry, but I got no answer (or missed it)... did the manga end in Japan? Any prediction for when it ends?

>>73941
Oh boy, do I hope so. I've had enough Gainax endings between the end(s) of Evangelion and the second half of KareKano.

>>73949

Why do I know so much about these...?

There's a doujin that's exactly that, non-hentai, and it's absolutely fucking gigantic. Really long.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) it's mostly kinda romantic/cute slice of life stuff as Shinji and Auska travel to Germany's NERV base, while being the last humans on Earth, so it's not very serious or doesn't deal much with any pressing psychological issues or what their kids are supposed to do when they wanna have kids of their own. It actually kinda implies some of the kids hook up and I hope to God they have some sort of gene therapy bullshit to make that less creepy.

>>73966
Dear sir, would you kindly link this doujin you speak off, so that we may see for ourselfs.

>>73984

They're all of Fakku:

http://www.fakku.net/viewmanga.php?id=4259

>>74003
Its a sappy but I will read it all later.

http://www.kommsussertod2012.com/

I do not see any evidence that this is actually sanctioned as an Eva project yet.