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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

File 138713760399.jpg - (125.51KB , 610x938 , sonic259.jpg )
220754 No. 220754
Previous thread >>219734

Solicits never got posted here for some reason so might as well do them now.

Sonic 259

The brand new world of Sonic the Hedgehog barrels ahead at breakneck speed with "The Chase" Part Two: Sonic fights for his life against a NEW terrifying super-badnik! Just to make matters worse, they’re battling on an out-of-control train! With Dr. Eggman waiting at the depot, Sonic’s in a fight against time – and killer robots! Featuring high-speed cover art from Sonic artist supreme TRACY YARDLEY! plus an exclusive SEGA game art variant!
Expand all images
>> No. 220756
The website that initially announced Sonic Universe 62 took down the article for some reason so I no longer have a cover, but here's a solicit.

"The EPIC CONCLUSION to the alien-smashing saga starring Shadow the Hedgehog IS HERE! "Shadow Fall" Part Four: Shadow vs. Black Death – for the fate of the world! Who will walk away alive? Who won’t make it to see a new day? Meanwhile, Rouge and Omega desperately try to save their G.U.N. comrades as Eclipse hunts them down! All this with a ticking nuclear time-bomb in the background! Don’t miss the pulse-pounding conclusion! Featuring new cover art from Tracy Yardley! and a special "CGI" variant by newcomer Sonic superstar Rafa Knight!"

Also of note Sonic Super Special Magazine 11 solicit out and it is to feature a short new universe origin story thing http://www.midtowncomics.com/store/dp.asp?PRID=SONIC+SUPER+SPECIAL+MAGAZ_1320390
>> No. 220757
File 138713809580.png - (207.00KB , 250x385 , megaman35.png )
Mega Man 35

The world of MEGA MAN X returns! Blast from the deadly jungle to the ferocious future in the Mega Man issue everyone is talking about! 'Shadow of the Moon' Part Two: Mega Man leads his fellow robots into the mysterious ruins of the Temple of the Moon. What horrors will they uncover hidden in the shadows? MEANWHILE, halfway around the world, Break Man finally confronts Tempo! Then, in 'The X Factor' Part Two - Maverick incidents are on the rise! Dr. Cain organizes the Hunters, but will X stand for their violent ways? Find out in this stunning story featuring all new cover and interior art by PATRICK 'SPAZ' SPAZIANTE and a sweet MEGA MAN X variant from BEN BATES!
>> No. 220759
Kind of surprised there's still more Ra Moon follow up....surely the Stardroids won't make their appearance already? Maybe Shadow Man is still hanging around? As for "Break Man confronts Tempo" it seems a little out of left field at first, but then I remembered that Light was talking to LaLinde when Blues overheard the talk of him getting reprogrammed and left, so this could be interesting.
>> No. 220760

I think it's just a bit of filler so they can set up the X Backups for the crossover.

And possibly lead into Mega Man 3. If Rock of Ages is anything to go by the Stardroids aren't going to actually do anything until after Mega Man 4.
>> No. 220763
Yeah, I have a feeling it will involve Shadow Man somehow.

Mega Man 3 when? I hope it doesn't take us this long to move on to 4 after it.
>> No. 220764
>Maybe it has to do with Shadow Man
>"Shadow of the Moon"


That said, MM3 never, let's just skip to 4.
>> No. 220765
That cover looks pretty rushed.
>> No. 220767
If only.
>> No. 220768
>Think about how cool it would be for the Dimensions to show up in the comics.
>Apparently Compass Man was stealthily inserted into Worlds Collide.

>> No. 220769
File 138714282692.jpg - (304.13KB , 700x1085 , SonicC251-3.jpg )

Huh I never noticed, that's really cool.
>> No. 220771
Wonder if they're actually allowed to use them.

I mean, they've alluded to MMnB2 being a thing they'll do later, but you never know with these spinoff/off-brand robots.
>> No. 220772

MM4 won't be for quite some time since Rockman World 2 is happening before it.

And that might require introducing the Genesis Unit and Mega Man Killers before that.
>> No. 220773
I wish they didn't adapt MM II. I have no sympathy for time related plots like that one.

I'm a big fan of the Mega Man Killers and Stardroids, but I find the whole thing with Quint to be not only unnecessary but just plain bad. Also, correct me if I wrong, but I think Inafune didn't like MM II either.
>> No. 220774

On the bright side being so far behind in game content means we probably won't have to deal with the Emerald Spears any time soon.
>> No. 220776
... true.
>> No. 220779
>Dock! Dock! Dock!
I Ω Omega.
>> No. 220799
It's probably a reprint of sth 251 with "secret" shoved in there to make it seem important
>> No. 220800
He didn't like Super Adventure Rockman, either.

Also the dimensions are directly tied into Quint's story, as well, since Rockman Shadow was a discarded Quint prototype
>> No. 220801
The question comes down to if we're just going to keep Quint and have him take over R-Shadow's shtick and roll with it, or if Quint stays a two-off like in the games and Ian channels his love of evil counterparts into R-Shadow.
>> No. 220816
>The question comes down to
No it doesn't. Quint and R-Shadow have completely different backgrounds, personalities, and story arcs. There's a realtionship there, but they're two different people for a good reason.
>> No. 220818

And Ra Moon and the Stardroids are completely unrelated characters.

There's nothing stating Ian can't change things for the comic. But I know you'll just throw a temper tantrum and call us all idiots for even suggesting the possibility, I remember the last threads this came up in.

So let's just pretend this never happened.
>> No. 220819
File 138725076356.gif - (647.99KB , 350x197 , 1364214352002.gif )
>> No. 220822
File 138725333853.jpg - (1.73MB , 1718x2459 , endangered_species_unofficial_remake__page_one_by_.jpg )
I'll just leave this here.
>> No. 220825
Or Ian will use both/give R-Shadow his one story and keep boning over Quint. The best option would be to use R-Shadow after a story or two about Quint since it makes the timeline less confusing, but...
>> No. 220826
Poor dialogue and nice but unfitting art? I think I'll pass. Decent effort, though.
>> No. 220827
You're nearly half a year late.
And it's not super great. Shad's not exactly well informed about writing a comic. I don't mean to be rude, but I'd rather have Mav pen it.
>> No. 220828
It feels like any fan who does it is going to come in with super biases and stuff it with things they wanted but couldn't get instead of what actually would have logically been in the story and enhanced things. That first page (pushing every character and place not mentioned into one room) really shows that off.
>> No. 220841
File 138728185049.jpg - (705.45KB , 1072x1650 , Mega Man 30 p12.jpg )
Have I mentioned yet how much I love this page? Both times I've storytimed it I got comments on how much people appreciate it.
>> No. 220842
Man. I really like Wood Man. He seemed the most passionate about his family in SAR.
>> No. 220845
Wood Man cares about his bros.
Quick Man cares about daddy and his rivals.
Shadow Man gives zero fucks.
>> No. 220855
I wonder how Shadow Man will fit into the MM 3 adaptation after this. It looks like he's going to be playing a big antagonistic role in the upcoming arc too. I doubt he'll get out of it as a very popular guy among the other Wily robots.
>> No. 220856
Maybe he just needs a hug.
>> No. 220857
>And it's not super great. Shad's not exactly well informed about writing a comic.

Biggest understatement of the day. I didn't know jack shit about writing comics when I started that thing. Sure, I looked up a few of Ian's old scripts as reference, but for the most part I was flying blind. I'd redo the first six pages if I could, but unfortunately it's too late for that.
>> No. 220860
>I don't mean to be rude, but I'd rather have Mav pen it

I'd love to get my hands on something like this, especially if they had a good editor working on it as well.

I'm curious, though, what of my writing are you familiar with?
>> No. 220861
I told you all that junk about your Legends you made with KKM.

I really don't mean to sound condescending, but you don't exactly have it down pat either. At the same time, you have a better grasp on the basics. Stuff like pacing and using your panels well instead of dumping words and characters on the page.

So like, you'd probably be better at plotting a story like this, but at the same time you're probably less passionate than Shad with these characters, and with amateur writers the less involved you are with something the more likely you are to get OOC or make silly mistakes.

I actually take it back, I'm not sure which one of you would do better. You'd probably do better if you helped each other, though.
>> No. 220863
>But at the same time you're probably less passionate than Shad with these characters,

Maybe the Echidnapalooza, but the other Archie stuff? I'd love to write a Zonic arc, are you kidding me? I was always a fan of the Zone Wars stuff. Not to mention all the Gallagher-era characters and stuff. Ian was basically living my dream back in his early days, bringing back all that old stuff and making it relevant and better.

>I actually take it back, I'm not sure which one of you would do better. You'd probably do better if you helped each other, though.

I would not mind co-writing things
>> No. 220864
I mean it's not like I don't like the Echidnas, it's just that Endangered Species itself and their connection to the LSC has made me less than enthusiastic about them.

Love to see Enerjak in something again, though. (The Ian Enerjak, not the Penders one)
>> No. 220865
That's exactly what I'm saying. You don't seem to care much for the stuff that would be prominent in Endangered Species, so you probably wouldn't do as good of a job as you would otherwise.
>> No. 220866
Yeah maybe, but then again, my need to see a GOOD story come out of it may also affect things, you know?
>> No. 220868

I'd very much welcome the extra help! Two heads are better than one and all that jazz.
>> No. 220869
Yeah, look how much Ken Penders loved working with Karl Bollers. Well, whatever. If you can make it work, more power to you.
>> No. 220873
File 138733232490.png - (1.15MB , 640x2183 , Mega Man Board GAme Add-ons.png )
That guy on the bottom...

Is that an archie character Ian has yet to reveal?

if not, will we see him/her/it in Archie should this be a new character?
>> No. 220875
I'm pretty sure that thing has nothing to do with Archie, so no......
>> No. 220876
90% of the artwork is lifted from Archie
>> No. 220877
That doesn't mean Archie is actually developing it. They're just using already-produced art as a resource.
>> No. 220878
File 13873406374.png - (125.25KB , 280x316 , BM753.png )
As the comic goes on will Kalinka grow her hair out over time to look like her older self in XOver? Or touch on the fact she does ballet dancing and play the piano? Seeing as we'll have to do the Mega Man 4 plotline at some point.
>> No. 220879
Guess that depends on whether they're allowed to actually acknowledge the ongoing passage of time.
>> No. 220880
>No Cutman until AT LEAST 300K+
You're bleeding me, Jasco.
>> No. 220881
File 138734515952.jpg - (45.86KB , 400x371 , MegaRush2Millions.jpg )
They know what you want. And they will give you what you want. For a price.
>> No. 220890

>Seeing as we'll have to do the Mega Man 4 plotline at some point.

Yeah in like three years.
>> No. 220898
Maybe in like 20 years. I doubt we'll even be seeing the MM4 adaptation in 2014. Maybe in 2015 if we're lucky.
>> No. 220899
Gotta fit in that Xover adaptation hinted in the solicit of MM 34
>> No. 220900
So Yoshi's Island Zone adaptation when, Ian?
>> No. 220903
No such thing was implied. I'll make sense of Xover only if I absolutely have to.

If Nintendo wanted to play ball, I'd be all over it. Just played it now. Weird as hell, but cute.
>> No. 220904
So I'm a doofus and I'm trying to fix the Archie Sonic Wiki, piece by piece (lost cause, I know). I noticed a ton of fixes that could be used for the template and added a big old spiel to the talk page since it wouldn't be polite to overhaul it without permission...and then realized talk pages don't come up in recent activity and nobody will find it this way.

And I'm not going to be making another account just to join Ian's forum and post this junk there. So if any of you dopes edit on the wiki or whatever, please read this and reply so I know if it's okay to completely refurbish this messy thing or not.
>> No. 220905
I boo intensely at your dismissal of the chance to make a poor iOS game into the Mega Man equivalent of Zonic. Over-1 has potential. And moxy. And other dumb stuff.

It'd probably be problematic to figure out the rights with him, though.
>> No. 220907
He sounds like Silver the way your talking. Archie Silver anyway
>> No. 220908
Or you could get someone to post it on BK for you.
Or you could just make an account you bum.
>> No. 220910
Quint/R-Shadow is too busy being Silver for that comparison to work.
Over-1 is the dude who comes out to organize team ups and defeat great evil with the power of plugging other issues and making other characters look cooler than him. He's totally Zonic.
>> No. 220912
Except Silver isn't evil, and in R-Shadow's case, bent on revenge for being slighted by both his daddies.

And did Over-1 receive ANY characterization? From what I saw the only perceivable characterization was Kalinka's light dialogue. Over-1 looked like a blank template.
>> No. 220913
pretty much is considering how the reception of the tablet game went. Only thing I ever think about seeing him is "he looks like he's got a wolf theme"
>> No. 220916
R-Shadow then went on to stop being a baddie. Or being dead. Depends on how you look at it.

Regardless, on a fundamental level, they served very similar purposes in the games: Guy from the future, very similar to the hero and his dark counterpart, who is relying too much on emotions and antagonizes them and stopped being relevant after their first game. Difference is Silver is a nice guy while R-Shadow is a brat who acticely hurts people.

Zonic and Over-1 both serve as vehicles to present the consumer with absolute nonsense events that can't happen otherwise (and to avoid blatant favoritism in O1's case).

Sure, Archie's Silver is a little different, but we haven't seen how you'll handle Quint or R-Shadow in the long term either. My point is that it's not hard to see Over-1 as a device for telling stupid stories you couldn't easily do otherwise when he exists for the purpose of making a crazy crossover happen and not much else.
>> No. 220918
Since you build your own Over-1 and have your friends' Over-1s help you out, he seems like a Massed-produced soulless machine
>> No. 220920
So they're the Monitors?
>> No. 220922
Time travel is involved. They could all be the same Over-1 from parallel overlapping timelines.
>> No. 220925
Let's just say Over-1 is a plot device and leave it at that.
>> No. 220929
So Ian can bascically do whatever the hell he wants with him
>> No. 220930
So Ian can bascically do whatever the hell he wants with him
>> No. 220937
You're talking out of your ass again, Mav. Surprise!
>> No. 220938
Hopefully he'll wants him to throw Over-1 under a spiked-covered bus.
>> No. 220940

Oh come now, Ian's a master of making lemonade from lemons.

...or blowing the lemons into dust with massive artillery fire. Okay, nevermind.
>> No. 220942
Typography | Cave Johnson Lemonsyoutube thumb
>> No. 220946
It's Time Man holding some of his time spear things
>> No. 220950
Don't get me wrong - I'd like to take a crack at Over-1 at the appropriate moment. If approached from the right angle, I don't think it would take too much mental gymnastics for a Light/Cossack-reploid-pre-X to work.

But we haven't even introduced X in the books yet. Cossack has barely been portrayed as a contemporary to Light. And MM#20 aside, we've not really dabbled in time-travel.

After we've got some X stories under our belt? After MM4, when we see what Cossack can do? After the Mega Man Killers/Quint/Time Skimmer business? That would be the earliest I'd want to approach X-Over.
>> No. 220952
Nobody's rushing you, man.

That said...do you know if Over-1 counts as his own licensing deal, or does he technically count as a Classic series character? It'd probably get really complicated if he was tied up in his own set of rights.
>> No. 220953

So, Ian wants to tell us the scrapped plans he had for the book, but he needs help prodding his memory for what stuff people are interested in. Also, no asking him to confirm any content barred from use.
>> No. 220955
No idea. I'd assume he's safe given that he's tied directly to the Classic and X series. But if 2012-2013 have taught me anything, assuming things are safe is a fool's gambit.
>> No. 220957

STARBOMB: Mega Marital Problems (Drum Cover)youtube thumb
>> No. 220962
The drums are good, but...

I don't have a BK account, so I hope he'll look over here a bit. Cuz I've got a couple.

1. Were there any plans to follow up on Liza? Valdez was kind of busy being dead, but Liza (maybe) got a little cameo in the Universe arc. Or, if she's so incidental there weren't any ideas there, are there any ideas for the Four Houses/Dragon Kingdom that had to get scrapped? Not to ask if those are gone or anything, but rather if there were any ideas based around aspects of the Shinobi or Gossamar clans that aren't really doable anymore.

2. Someone on BK already asked about the Onyx, so what about the Mysterious Cats, or Lupe's specific pack members in general, like her human kids? That was obviously going somewhere.

3. Speaking of, what about Drago. Was 276-300 originally just going to be 25 consecutive issues of characters punching Drago in the face? :P

4.How about them Grandmasters? Anything you were planning with Diesel that you can't just do with Axel?

5. Any plans with the Acorns in general, or were they going to stay mostly background props?

6. Not as much of a memory-jogger as a tip: It'd probably be a really good idea to cull up info on the ideas you had for other characters in general. Even if it's unknown if they're sticking around or not, their role could change so much that we'd need another one of these one day. And it would really suck if someone asked "What was gonna happen with Beau" and you'd be like "uhhh...I forgot."
>> No. 220963
>"Was 276-300 originally just going to be 25 consecutive issues of characters punching Drago in the face?"
I could get behind this.
>> No. 220973
I'd really like to know what would have happened with Ixis St. John. (Wally) Naugus is still in the book and may still try to take control of the kingdom at some point in the future, but how long would he have been able to fool everyone as St. John? Would St. John ever get back control of his body? Was he even still in his body? Would Ixis recover? Was it going to be a showdown against the SFF?

Oh, would Shard have recovered? SU50 had him right on the edge.
>> No. 220977
File 138750111223.jpg - (39.97KB , 300x406 , This cover was made in less than two hours.jpg )
SSSM11 cover is out.

It's...a cover.
>> No. 220978
Same, I don't have a BK account either, could someone please ask Flynn if he could answer

What was going to happen with Vectors origin that was teases about early in SU Knuckles The Return arc?

Were you planning anything with anti-Tails and the Suppression Squad keeping the goal post schematics?
>> No. 220980
File 138750701658.jpg - (214.36KB , 900x692 , T-Rex you a bustah.jpg )
T-Rex is a dirty filthy not-exactly-liar and I love him for it.
>> No. 220993
>Mega Man is a reprint
>Sonic is an excuse not to buy the magazine yet again.

I guess they just don't want people buying the magazine?
>> No. 220994
>Complaining that they reprint incredibly recent stories for free instead of half assing a shitty story for FCBD or some shitty database.

They've only managed to make a decent story for FCBD twice.
>> No. 220996
Rather they want everybody to see the new origin even if they don't buy the magazine.
>> No. 221000
File 138757379737.jpg - (223.06KB , 834x1284 , Mhx_zero[1].jpg )
>Zero using his post-revival Dr. Cossack Design
>Not using his glorious original Dr. Wily Design from before he was killed and rebuilt

I grow concerned about the authenticity of this tale. If they can't get a simple detail like that right, then what?
>> No. 221002
Since it's leading into a crossover with Mega Man, they may not actually be starting from the beginning.
Also it's just a FCBD cover, christ.
>> No. 221004


This is it! The issue every Mega-fan has been demanding! The debut of Mega Man X! But first, in 'Shadow of the Moon' Part One: Mega Man joins a research team seeking the truth behind Dr. Wily and Ra Moon. But how far will they get when Shadow Man goes on the attack? Then, in 'The X Factor' Part One: jump 100 years into the future as Dr. Cain discovers Dr. Light's final, greatest creation - Mega Man X! Featuring pencils by the returning Mega Man art legend Patrick 'Spaz' Spaziante! The road to the next big mega-crossover starts here, featuring an exclusive Mega Man X variant cover by superstar artist Ben Bates!

>Dr. Cain discovers Dr. Light's Final Creation
>> No. 221006
Nobody said the back up was going to be strictly chronological.
We're probably going to be seeing things from after X wakes up before he's awakened in the final page of part 2.
>> No. 221007
Part 2 seems to be about the very first Mavericks, which implies a pre-MMX story
>> No. 221011
Yeah, it's obviously pre-MMX. Which means that Archie's fucked up.
>> No. 221013
Zero possibly using the wrong design in a comic adaptation that hasn't even been released yet and could get fixed before release if it's even an issue? Better pack it in, folks, we're doomed.
>> No. 221014
Sphere. vs Square. Where did it all go wrong.
>> No. 221015
Just for legal clarification sake, would the comic be able to introduce new characters that were a combination of two or more of the old banned ones?
Like, could Penders sue if Hershey Mongoose and Ash St. John were suddenly things?
>> No. 221017
File 138760100136.png - (66.13KB , 523x691 , thispairofjackoffs.png )
You gotta be kidding.
>> No. 221018
Well, if you go by Ken's logic, only he is ever allowed to make derivative characters. Otherwise it's copyright infringement. After all, Robo-Robotnik is the most original and unique of characters.

Good luck trying to get royalties for an art gallery entry in a 10 year old game that came out when you still worked for Archie, Ken. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get a whole 20 dollars from sales of the digital version of the game.

Trying to fight when you think someone's infringed your work is one thing. This is just greed.
>> No. 221020
At this point you have to wonder if its less about money and more about ruining any good will Sega has left with Archie after everything else he's already destroyed. I've never seen such a hateful, yet self-righteous and devious guy. You can see the spite from orbit.
>> No. 221024
Can't tell if Penders fanboy or just Anti-Archie/Sega

Probably both
>> No. 221025
What, like New King Max is Old Maximillian and King Elias?
>> No. 221026
>could Penders sue

Yes. Of course.
Win? Don't know. Sue? Yes. And Archie's terrified of the lawsuit happening at all, not of losing the lawsuit. They don't want a phonecall from SEGA saying "You let our good name get dragged through the mud AGAIN? We need to renegotiate your contract. Again."

That's why all the "could he sue if we pulled THIS trick?" conversations miss the point. If there's enough of a case for a judge to not offer summary judgement, Archie's not going to risk it.
>> No. 221027
Well, that and Ian's an honest man. He wouldn't pull that kind of crap even if he thought he'd get away with it.
>> No. 221028

I was wondering this, but for story elements, like combinations of places or character concepts. Could the comic introduce something like Sonic having parents (for example) later down the track?

Not saying Archie should, or that I want them to, I'm merely asking.
>> No. 221033

Nah, Penders is claiming ownership of the concept of parents, Mother Nature and all her creatures, and deity creators, meaning that only he is allowed to create things, and all creations belong to him.

Everyone has the right to use them, of course.

Provided they pay an unspecified fee.

He owns Sonic, too. He just hasn't quite figured out how yet. I'm guessing seniority.
>> No. 221039
Sonic Lost World™ Yoshi's Is…youtube thumb
>> No. 221040
You're a moron. Why don't you go tell Ben Bates that he obviously hasn't played the games or something? And he'll probably told you that he just grew Zero in his more iconic look with his more iconic weapon because it's a cover just meant to grab attention with a popular character and has nothing to do with the actual content.
>> No. 221041
SEGA doesn't want its characters to have family members, regardless of what Penders does.
>> No. 221045
Honestly if we go by the solicits Zero won't even be there.
>> No. 221048
They could, and they would probably be fine.
Problem is that Penders would sue them anyway.
>> No. 221054

Tristan Jones, cover artist for the MMX side, explained his choice to use that version of Zero here: http://www.themmnetwork.com/blog/2013/12/20/mega-man-x-free-comic-book-day-cover-and-solicitation
>> No. 221057
It's not just a design choice though. It's not like Roll's redesign in MM8 which was offscreen, Zero's redesign was explained in-canon. In X2 he's rebuilt and given new armor, and the Z-saber, by Serges.
>> No. 221060
Did you even read Tristan Jones' comments in the link? He said it was just a visual choice for the cover alone, not the actual contents of the story. He even tried doing it with the X1 look and it didn't fit with the rest.
>> No. 221061
Wow thank god you're the only person on the internet who played the games and knows this kind of thing.
>> No. 221063
> Even the cover artist agrees that X1 Zero design is inferior.
>> No. 221064
Guys, Roll doesn't wear her MM1-7 outfit on the first Mega Man cover. And 255 shows Nicole fighting on the cover when she still hasn't yet. And Tails was yellow on some covers while he was brown in the issues themselves.

Archie ruined.
>> No. 221066
Quick question. So...has Sonic been nu52'd? Like, new continuity and such? I've been buying the issues but haven't had time to sit down and read them.
>> No. 221068
Ugh, no, not Nu52.

This was COIE. The end result looks readable.

Not like Nu52 at all.
>> No. 221071
The new direction of Sonic
Sonic Lost World™ Yoshi's Is…youtube thumb
>> No. 221077
Well that was a thing that happened.
>> No. 221081
Readable, but boring.
>> No. 221082
Mav, you've got a serious problem with parroting and impulsive decision making. Think real hard about what you want, why you want it, how attainable it is, and what effect it would have in the narrative instead of saying the same junk everywhere without giving it any deeper thought.
>> No. 221107
>Think real hard about what you want
I want a comic series that will make me excited to read the next issue by reading the story written within each issue.
>why you want it
If I'm paying for a piece of entertainment, then I should be entertained by it.
>how attainable it is
The same team makes Mega Man, and what's going on with Ra Moon has me wanting more each issue. Sonic should be able to do this, but doesn't, and really hasn't done much for me for like a year
>what effect it would have in the narrative
It'd be better to read?

I mean how long does the "growing pains" period have to be? Ian and company, by this time in Mega Man, had an adaptation of the first game, plus started world building in a story that wasn't predictable and by the numbers. "Time keeps Slipping" gave us the human side of things with Krantz and Stern, it hinted at things to come, and showed us that original stories in that universe could work.

PPP-a good story with great character momentsthat didn't tie itself well in the end
At All Costs- A great issue that hit the ground running
Countdown to Chaos- A very "by the numbers" story that tripped up after At All Costs, leaving the comic doing a very formulaic "Sonic goes to a place, finds his friend, does a thing, friend gets memory back." Even "Let the Games Begin" wasn't as boring as "Mega Man finds robot Master, Mega Man beats Robot Master, Mega Man moves on to next Robot Master" we had Mega Man going mad with power, Mega Man worried that would turn him into some kind of monster, we had the DLN numbers showing how much of a group of good guys they are by going against Wily's orders through loopholes. It was interesting and it was dynamic.

Countdown to Chaos is not so much.

And What does Shadowfall have? I don't know, but I don't see much of it in the first issue, and I even showed it to someone who doesn't read the comic and he was like "why are they making a sequel Shadow the Hedgehog and why is Eclipse and Black Death things that exist?" and he doesn't hate Sonic or anything like that.
>> No. 221110
>And What does Shadowfall have? I don't know, but
That's really it. You don't know. You're applying the formula of one arc as if this is all that's ever going to exist, and this is even while admitting that the books are interesting outside of the three issues that have the same basic plot. Was Archie ruined when they did the World Tour's formula with the introduction of the DEL? Was it ruined when they did it AGAIN after the roboticization?

That showing the friend story also didn't really... say anything. He was confused by Black Doom and Eclipse. Good. We don't know who they are either. All you accomplished was that showing something out of context to a person makes them ask "why?"
>> No. 221113
It's been a few months of duds for me. The first half or 3/4 of PPP held up, but fell flat for me at the end. Shadowfall does not have a strong start. I enjoyed 252, I enjoyed the beginning of PPP, but Countdown and Shadowfall just aren't doing it for me.
>> No. 221115
Well, despite your "statement" about the Shadowfall starting off weak, I'm enjoying it myself. I find it interesting how people might not trust Shadow for what he is, I enjoy Omega's destructive tendencies and Rouge's sassiness, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Eclipse and Black Death play out because it's a chance to see the concept of the Black Arms done with more effort than the boring generic evil space monsters they were. It probably helps that I'm not purposefully hampering my enjoyment by forcing myself to believe that I know nothing of these characters or their dynamics with each other, too.
>> No. 221117
For the Mega Man fans:


For the Sonic fans:

>> No. 221119
This whole thing was just an explosion of controversy after I made a post saying the issue sucked. Yes I admit I'm a bit annoyed and whatnot, but I reserve the right to have my own opinion. I'm willing to give Shadowfall its due. I just really don't like the direction the world is taking so far.

I see the things that you're mentioning, and they could be interesting hooks, but... it's just not hooking me like the other arcs have, which doesn't sit right with me.
>> No. 221120
I can't say I'm in love with the book now either. It's certainly one of my better pulls but it's been so much better. And I don't subscribe so I don't have universe yet, but not looking forward to black doom. Shadow the hedgehog was terrible with a capital t so any Daption does not interest me. Archie shadow was pretty cool but if he needs to be realigned to be sega shadow then no thanks
>> No. 221121
Sure you can have an (informed) opinion. But surely you can see how your endless stream of "this is boring" and "this is generic" and "they're not even TRYING to do any worldbuilding" and "the characters have no dynamic between them" gets a LITTLE grating, ESPECIALLY when you're saying all this and more about stories you barely know anything about?
>> No. 221124
I think I snapped. I'm gonna sit on Sonic issues from now on, give myself more time to think it over and whatnot.
>> No. 221126
>not looking forward to black doom

Good, because he's dead. This is a sequel
>> No. 221131
Black Death so far seems like a retread. We'll have to see if he's any different.
>> No. 221134
I agree with Mav, so far this new universe is bland. The intro was bland, CDtC is nice but bland, PPP was very bland, and Shadowfall is shaping up to be bland too.

I'm just far more forgiving due to the poor circumstance the comic finds itself in, realizing it'll need time to pick up steam again.
>> No. 221136
Man, I don't know about you doofuses, but I'm GLAD we've got a second shot at Black Doom.

He was basically Sega's Mammoth Mogul. Except even fucking hammier and with a weird ANCIENT COSMIC DEEP EVIL vibe. I originally hated him, but as a concept? Holy shit, Doom had serious potential as a villain.

If Death dies at the end of this arc I'm gonna be really pissed. It'll be the second time in a few years Ian will have dumped a neat villain he created to boost up an EDGIER villain.
>> No. 221138
Dude...I think you kinda missed the point I was making. You're only addressing things on a surface level. I ask you "what do you want" and you say "not boring." You aren't thinking about the how or why. What makes it boring? Why is it bland? What are you actually looking for in the comic?

I ask you why you want what you want, and you say "because I pay for it". You're not asking yourself why you want certain qualities from the comic, possibly because you haven't taken the first step and asked yourself what it is you actually want from the book in the first place.

I ask how attainable it is, and you say "well the same guys are making it" without considering WHAT you want to change, WHY you want it to change, and HOW it can be achieved, and finally HOW it will affect the overall narrative to make these changes.

I seriously think you have a problem with parroting thing you hear, not just from other but from yourself. You see a thing or think a thing and then you just keep saying it without thinking about why you're saying it. I've seen you say this on a few places now, but all you do is say "But it's bland" without explaining what your problem with it is, and sometimes citing really strange examples for how it can be done better.

Like, let's just look at the CDtC vs LtGB comparison for a second.
You talk about how CDtC is just "go here see guy fix problem" while MM's first arc has more to it. Except the problem is that this is a very selective comparison. CDtC is three issues in, LtGB is a four issue arc. 252 in Sonic serves as a zero issue, retconning the heck out of everything and getting the ball rolling, and wouldn't be necessary to start CDtC if it wasn't for the abrupt plot shift.

In an actual comparison of the first three issues of each story, we have:
Mega Man - Foreshadows issue 4, Mega Man's universe's take on robots explained alongside what RMs are, Wily established as bad guy, Mega Man armors up, Rock interacts with some people, action scenes give basic idea of story flow, Rock defeats masters, each Master gives shades of the personality and powerset (except poor Fire Man), Light/Roll act as support, Rock gets cocky, family bonding, family drama, buildup to issue 4.
Sonic - Recap of 252's basic point, Eggman's subplot starts, replacement for Diesel introduced and multiple new terms explicitly mentioned to throw up a "hey this is new" flag, general infodump for the audience's sake, Mystic Ruins introduced and Big re-introduced, clarifies that certain old stories are no longer canon, adds subplot of fading old memories, New Rotor and Sky Patrol introduced, fight scene to give an idea of how he works, Rotor flips and the rest of the story is set up, Eggman subplot continues and hint is given to next arc, GUN and Mercia/Avalon reintroduced (presumably to show an example of something old staying while changing), Chuck/Muttski/Antoine reintroduced, more characterization/fightshowoffing/hinting at next arc/set up, Bunnie reintroduced, character/fight/blahblahblah, more new characters introduced, Eggman subplot continues, etc.

Both arcs have way more happening than you're implying, and the new Sonic arc has more stuff happening in general. The difference is that MM's arc was laying a strong foundation while Sonic's is massively changing the status quo and throwing new and old info at you all at once. It's kind of a checklist establishing the yeses and nos while they figure everything out and to stop people from asking a million questions. Whether it's successful or not, I'm not quite sure.

But, long story short, you're spending too much time saying it's bland and not enough time actually looking at what you like and dislike to determine what you think is wrong. I, personally, think the arc could have been handled better, but to say less is going on than in Mega Man 1's adaptation? That's kind of silly.
>> No. 221139
Yeah, Ian is sort of like a juggler.

He was performing on stage with twenty balls in the air, and then some douchebag threw a brick at him and now he's starting all over with three or four
>> No. 221187
>>second time

I'll bite - what was the first?

And sometimes those new balls are taken away. Or I'm expecting a new one, only for it to blow up in my face.

This is a very worrisome metaphor.
>> No. 221188
When /co/ did its Sonic Marathon, people ended up liking Harvey Greenleaf a lot more than Xander Payne. They thought him being a really ambiguous antagonist worked better than Xander just being a regular old villain.
>> No. 221189

Unringing the bell of Advanced Robotics isn't ambitious?
>> No. 221190
>"Or I'm expecting a new one, only for it to blow up in my face"
Then you shouldn't have Bean throwing balls at you.

I agree with this. Greenleaf was pretty great.

Ambiguous, not ambitious.
>> No. 221191
Maybe you should switch to making balloon animals.
>> No. 221192
Ah. Yeah, that was kinda frustrating, since Harvey wasn't supposed to have as much page time and focus as he did. The name and design were all supposed to scream "flake" while Xander was supposed to be the obvious brains and drive behind the movement.

Theo and Simone were supposed to stand out more, too, but in the end they just looked like random mooks that we happened to remember to use later.

But some of that was out of my hands, and I guess I didn't manage to compensate enough in the scripts to make up for it.
>> No. 221194
>Harvey stuff
Just goes to show that sometimes unintended changes can make lesser characters into someone people end up liking.
>> No. 221195
Flake though he may have been, it'd be interesting to see Harvey return. Either reformed or as someone rejecting the violent direction the Spears went in while still being a pain in the ass. He was fun in his own way, man.
>> No. 221196

Oh, derp. Well I would say that dinner date story tried to make the case for Xander being somewhat justified, at least.
>> No. 221197
Making him a politician would be pretty great for a number of reasons.
>> No. 221199
>The name and design were all supposed to scream "flake" while Xander was supposed to be the obvious brains and drive behind the movement.
I felt like that actually came across really well. I just liked the space case hippie more than the guns akimbo terrorist.
>> No. 221205
Seems like everyone does. We already have a mustache-twirlingly evil villain in Wily
>> No. 221209
I wouldn't go that far.

That said, Xander's definitely not the most intriguing guy around. The New Year's issue actually sold me on Theo and Simone, and I'd never want Greenleaf to go back to being their leader if he ever showed up again, but...Xander's just...I don't know. It feels like he's trying to look like a badass badguy when he's a bit generic, I guess? He's got the same beef Gil does, but so do the nameless Spear mooks.

The best way to put it is that every named, comic created character so far has either been good or had some kind of hook that made me interested in them...except Xander. I really hope that, when he shows up again, we either get a nice hook for him or we spend as little panel time with him as possible and instead focus on Theo and Simone.
>> No. 221210
I appreciate the succinct and honest criticism. Rather refreshing, really.

We're definitely going to be doing something... different... with Xander next year.
>> No. 221214
The saga we've all been waiting for: Xander Payne dressing up as Bad Box Art Mega Man to ruin Mega Man's reputation Man of the Year style.
>> No. 221218
Or, just off the top of my head, he tries to straight-up kill Wily. Murder's something he would do that Wily wouldn't, and considering that Wily is probably going to be Pretend Good for a while there are a number of ways you could even make him sympathetic. Think of all the grief the world would be saved from if Wily had just gotten the death penalty at some point.
>> No. 221219
Let's not Joker this shit, especially for a guy who was more dangerously irresponsible than malicious.
>> No. 221220

You can't really pin hundreds of years of bloody warfare on the joker. Also didn't humanity have to go live in space for a while because earth was so messed up?

Payne's about nipping Judgment Day in the bud, anything Wily's already done is small potatoes as far as he's concerned.
>> No. 221221
If you pin it on Wily, you have to pin it on Light, too.
They were both irresponsible/naive, just more Wily than Light (you can't be stupid enough to think that future people are going to respect your wishes and leave your robot be instead of doing something stupid like mass producing them without reading your warning). Blaming them for X and beyond is like blaming the scientists working on the Manhattan Project for the Cold War.

The people who make tools aren't the ones to blame.

Also, DC has totally blamed Joker for shit like that before.
>> No. 221223

(Hi you were talking to me while I was at work on a tablet shhh)

Yes, but if nuclear war actually did happen, some jerk would jump in a time machine and try to cap Oppenheimer.

So yeah it's flawed logic, that's exactly why I think Xander might present it someday.
>> No. 221283
File 138833644423.jpg - (203.16KB , 462x526 , tumblr_mvoyogMkrc1rah73ho1_500.jpg )
I haven't been reading Sonic since they started the whole crossover with Mega Man thing, did they really reboot Muttski into Uncle Chuck's apprentice?
>> No. 221290

Yes, Sonic and Tails' faces upon learning that was pretty hilarious.
>> No. 221292
There's something very off-putting about that design. It just looks like a guy in a dog costume. Also he's doing the amomentofarchiesonic mouth.
>> No. 221295
That's because that mouth was shooped on.
That's not how he looks in the issue.
>> No. 221296
>> No. 221302
There's a lot of things they changed, but yes. Ben "Mutt" Muttski is Uncle Chuck's apprentice. Also Uncle Chuck may not be Sonic's Uncle (but only enough so that SEGA doesn't put the ban hammer on him). Everyone just calls him "Uncle Chuck" now, instead of "Sir Charles"
>> No. 221303
Everyone called him Uncle Chuck since SatAM anyway.
>> No. 221310
Just a clever little way to get around SEGA's "No family" mandate, I think.
>> No. 221312
Fucking Sega and their mandates. What do they think they are, the owners of Sonic the Hedgehog?

>> No. 221314
But they've been doing it like that since forever, the comic just started calling him "Sir Charles" too, which was kind of stupid.
>> No. 221319
...why was it stupid? He was knighted in SatAM. There's nothing wrong with showing him a bit of respect and using his honorific.
>> No. 221324
it's actually kind of a loss

Jules was bad-fucking-ass

I dont even remember the name of sonic's mom though, totally under used, no memory of her at all.
>> No. 221327
I just feel like it's weird how some characters switched between the two. It's not like Antoine being "Ant" sometimes, Sir Charles is the kind of name you use when you have a very different relationship with the guy.

If it'd just been people in politics like Max saying it I'd probably not mind, or if he had been knighted after Max came back and people started calling him that, but it felt really dumb when everyone else suddenly adopted "Sir Charles" when that totally wasn't a thing they were doing before.

I mean, imagine if it was revealed Rotor was actually knighted at birth and everyone totally knew this and Tails and Bunnie just started to call him "Sir Rotor" most of the time out of nowhere. It's strange and kind of stupid.

That's just an opinion on a really, really minor detail, though.
>> No. 221333
Bernie. She never had the same hair-style twice.
>> No. 221335
The last one made her a total MILF and not in a Milfy way
>> No. 221357
So who do ya think will get a SU arc next?

What I want - another Chaotix arc, but I'm betting it'll be Babylon Rogues since we haven't seen them in a while.
>> No. 221368
Remember that time when the Chaotix were playing tag and Mighty tried to SMASH VECTOR'S FACE IN WITH A TREE so he wouldn't get tagged?

That was great.
>> No. 221371
Knuckles would probably be a good choice. He's got a lot of questions to answer, and we haven't seen him in a while. The Chaotix would get to have some screentime with that too.
>> No. 221372

Man this makes me sad. The new Chaotix won't be the same.
>> No. 221373
Why not? The only thing that really changes about them is Charmy's comedy not being hindered by the brain drain backstory.
>> No. 221374
One of the cover artists implied the new Chaotix is going to be like its game counterpart.
>> No. 221375
You realize I said the thing about the tree sarcastically because it was absolutely absurd and terrible, right? It wasn't even used to be funny or something, Mighty was just accidentally written as a sociopath.
>> No. 221377
So someone on BK came up with the following examples to explain why people are upset with the reboot.
>Imagine if characters like Mighty, Ray, Nack, and Bark were built up alongside the current main cast and just disappeared one day in a similar reality warping incident.
>Let's say in the next Sonic video game, the following random characters were removed from the series for the reason that someone at Sega created them and no longer wants them in the games- Knuckles, Amy Rose, Metal Sonic, and Chaos.

Is it a bad thing that I would be mostly okay with this? I mean, I'd really miss Knuckles, but I don't think I'd be that upset.

>Let's imagine Dragonball Z right after Cell has absorbed Androids 17 and 18 and achieved his perfect form. Then out of nowhere, a random machine of Dr. Gero's appears and warps reality in an attempt to get revenge, turning Perfect Cell into his imperfect form and making a large chunk of the cast, including the Z Warriors, disappear. Then, Imperfect Cell runs away in fear, ending the arc.
> Imagine the battle with Tobi and Naruto being interrupted by the completion of Project Tsuki no Mei and then the genjutsu world being improperly reversed. As a result, a large chunk of the cast is now removed from the series with all their lingering plot lines being ignored. Then a weakened Tobi or even Madara runs away, resulting in the end of that arc.

And is it a bad thing that I'd actually PREFER if this happened? Naruto's been stalling itself for like three years and hasn't been good in a dog's age, and the Perfect Cell dickwaving and the Cell Games were probably the worst parts of the Cell arc, and it would have left Cell open to return again and do something cooler.
>> No. 221378
Now it's only hindered by his being entirely unfunny.
>> No. 221379
He has potential, you just have to do him right.
It's like Marine.
>> No. 221392
Yeah, which they already were.

That example places the characters being gotten rid of as far more prominent than they should be (besides Chaos.) The main characters are there, as they always have been, with some very few exceptions.
>> No. 221394
> I rather resent the fact that the videogames and their characters--which I find at best inoffensive, which is a quality I ironically find rather offensive--have now become the main source of backstory in this brave new 'verse

I don't get you guys sometimes. Every time I browse your "actual" forums I find stuff that just bewilders me.
>> No. 221399
Plus4chan is Plus4chan's actual forum. Each community is separate, even if some members overlap.
>> No. 221405
People who grew up with the comic have a reason to be reasonably upset.
>> No. 221406
I understand people being reasonably upset.

Complaining that video games are the main source of backstory in a video game adaptation isn't reasonable.
>> No. 221407
File 138855139255.jpg - (97.27KB , 436x640 , 0dof[1].jpg )
Image of Sonic Archives.

Is this the first one to credit writers?
>> No. 221408
Apparently 22 is getting the same treatment.

It's also really weird that Penders gets top billing even though he only wrote 1/8th of the content of this volume. Fingeroth or Bollers should be getting top billing, but Fingeroth isn't even on the list. Neither is Maxwell, even though he drew the cover story.
>> No. 221411
Consider it just being upset that something good was turned shitty. That's reasonable.
>> No. 221412
Mav, what's your problem with understanding that people have different opinions? I would argue that a lot of the shittiness is thankfully gone now.
>> No. 221414
Not Mav, and it's pretty funny that you can say that with a straight face since your entire post is about stopping other people from expressing their opinion that things are currently shitty.

Grow up and accept people won't like what you like. I'm not forcing you to hate it.
>> No. 221415
Also not Mav (in fact I can't stand him) and giving you the bird SOOOO hard right now. Ian might be able to make this bearable, but we lost a LOT of good things. Don't be an ass dude, long-running plots got thrown out and while tons of unpopular chars were lost, tons of popular ones appear to have been too. You don't need to be Mav to be seriously honked off by all this nonsense.
>> No. 221416
File 138857495962.jpg - (742.51KB , 780x1200 , 1329169999352.jpg )
I've been arguing for the quality of the comic book (and I still will,) but yeah not everybody who's angry is Mav and they're right to dislike what happened. I don't really think the book's been gutted, but side characters like Elias did have their fans and it's not a good thing they don't get to see him. If that colors their opinion, then that's just what happens. Nothing is gained by making it a big fight about who's betraying the fandom by liking it or not liking it.

Complaining that the video games are the backstory is really stupid, of course. But we've moved on from that.
>> No. 221419
> (in fact I can't stand him)
While this hurts, I can understand why it is. I am who I am, I suppose. Sorry I'm such a bother that I have to be brought up so often.
>> No. 221421
>Consider it just being upset that something good was turned shitty. That's reasonable.

Woah woah woah.
When did we jump from "I'm mad that Sonic comics are basing their backstory on video games" to "the comic is shit"? That's one heck of a leap. If you don't like it because you don't think it's any good anymore, that's one thing, but that's a totally different matter in and of itself because that's something determined both by a variety of factors and personal preference.
And I would hope that video game comics referring readers to video games wouldn't be the ONLY reason someone would think things are shitty now, since the comic did exactly this back in the day anyway.

>The one time I'm not the person calling Mav out, it's not Mav.

I'm really not as bothered by the characters leaving as other people are, but I totally get why some people don't like it. Maybe I don't mind as much because the comic's lived way past its natural lifespan? I'm not sure. All I know is I'd still be willing to see if the comic's good or not no matter which characters you removed. But, again, I can totally see why some people are super upset.

The thing I don't get is that I've seen people call the new issues shit or bad solely because of the lack of previous characters. Like, it's way harder to find actual critique with the writing, and that's concerning. A lot of the best stories didn't HAVE a lot of characters who are gone now in them, and a lot of good ones were the ones only introducing those characters for the first time, so I don't really get when people evaluate whether the comic is good or not based on if characters who showed up only a few times over the last eight years are showing up in again or not (I think Elias showed up...fourteen(?) times over Ian's run? Mostly at the beginning and the end, and about half of them as a very minor figure). I get why they'd be peeved, but saying the comic is good or bad based on that? I don't get it.
>> No. 221434
I'm pretty sure that cover is the only time Max's Naugus Armor hasn't looked like absolute garbage.
>> No. 221467
So uh, new discovery in the MJ vs Sonic 3 debate. It's a couple months old but nobody brought it up.

The Jetzons - Hard Timesyoutube thumb

Sonic 3 Music: Ice Cap Zone Act 1 [extended]youtube thumb

Hard Times x Ice Cap Zone - Wave Comparisonyoutube thumb
>> No. 221473
So here's a question that's been bugging me.

Is new Antoine supposed to be taller than Sonic?
>> No. 221474
Antoine has almost always been slightly taller than Sonic. Sonic's quills just reach higher than Twan's hair. Bunnie and Rotor are too.

In fact, Sonic heights tend to correlate with age.
Silver is exactly Sonic's height and Blaze is just short of that and makes up for it with her heels, and they're only a year younger. Knuckles is a year older and happens to be 10cm taller. Tails is significantly shorter, and Charmy and Cream are shorter than he is because they're pre-school age. The guys in their 20s, like Vector and Big, have traditionally been way bigger than Sonic, and Eggman's the tallest guy ever because he's old (and human).
>> No. 221480

Is this guy for real or not? definitely not, as there is so much stupid-sounding stuff here
>> No. 221483
>In fact, Sonic heights tend to correlate with age.

It's almost like people tend to grow bigger with age.
>> No. 221484
>20 year olds tend to be 2 feet taller than 18 year olds.
> Variations in height regardless of age do not exist
> Tall and short di not exist
>> No. 221485
Yeah, not buying it at all. It was sounding very unlikely to begin with, especially when it became "time travelling high school Sonic", but Shadow and Rouge were what sealed it being fake. That said, I almost kind of want to see Shadow in a Hawaiian shirt.
>> No. 221487
Oh, is that what I said? No, what I'm pretty sure I said was that people tend to grow bigger with age. Tend is not an absolute.
>> No. 221491
File 138881072487.jpg - (52.11KB , 596x738 , nicole314.jpg )
>> No. 221494
File 138882888879.png - (8.06KB , 362x295 , New Shadow.png )
>I almost kind of want to see Shadow in a Hawaiian shirt.

Drawfag from /co/ delivers
>> No. 221496
File 138882912819.png?nsfw - (7.99KB , 343x295 , 1388807252592.png?nsfw )
NSFW version
>> No. 221497
File 138882920481.jpg - (89.08KB , 700x1006 , 1388809279785.jpg )
And Russian Blaze
>> No. 221499
I'm confused
>> No. 221500
That's adorable. I'd make a pole(sky) cat joke, but she's not a skunk.
>> No. 221523
Im confused. Ian's posted a few things on Bumbleking today, one of them confirming that the cut content isn't coming back.


At first I thought he mean't just Penders' work, but not just his stuff has been cut.

So is that confirmation that Mina, Monkey Khan etc are gone for good too? :/
>> No. 221528
People keep trying to find meaning in every single thing Ian says despite Ian saying he's not trying to sneak hidden answers in his posts.

Ian said the cut content isn't coming back unless something crazy happened. We knew this already. Finding any deeper meaning in that is pointless. We don't know if "cut content" refers to anyone non-Penders, or if it just means the stuff Penders ran off with.

If we're going to assume everything that hasn't shown up yet is 100% gone forever, we'd be including people like Munch the Rat or Alan Quail too, since they haven't been mentioned yet. Who's to say they exist?
>> No. 221529
New thread: >>221521
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