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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

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200100 No. 200100
Everyone has a favorite D-lister. What's yours?

I love Wild Dog. He's like Punisher on a shoestring budget. My favorite group is probably Uncle Sam's Freedom Fighters.
Expand all images
>> No. 200102
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>> No. 200103
I remember him dying horrible in Infinite Crisis as he and former Leagers tried to take mind controlled Supes at Lord's Checkmate retreat
>> No. 200115
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I can't get enough of this guy. He's unique, mostly because no one in their right mind would ever make a character that emulates him in any way.
>> No. 200124
Blacksad and Beasts of Burden. The entire cast of both.

Not D-listers in any respect, but I've only found a few fans of Blacksad online, and nobody irl who knows either (but then again, I've only found a handful of people who read comics/manga at all outside of cons).
>> No. 200129
I thought of bringing up Beasts of Burden, I think in another thread.

I actually told an IRL pal of mine about Beasts of Burden, he loved it after giving it a couple of tries.
>> No. 200133
Yep. To be fair he had balls of steel to go into said situation.

My favorites from Marvel would probably be D-Man, Photon and USAgent.
>> No. 200156
It's really good! I never really had a chance to develop a close relationship with an animal as a kid, but reading Beasts of Burden made me kind of understand what pet owners go through and how they feel.
>> No. 200171
>Yep. To be fair he had balls of steel to go into said situation.

No, he had a writer with a head of steel. Solid steel.
>> No. 200185
That was actually an alternate future in the Booster Gold book.

During Infinite Crisis, he was in Metropolis during Secret Society's siege, bustin' them gunz.
>> No. 200187
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Zeitgeist of X-Force.

Pitiable scumbag that manages to pull off the moniker despite his power "just" being acidic vomit.
>> No. 200189
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I'm starting to like this guy I've never heard of before.

I also like his 'costume'
>> No. 200192
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Mad Dog In infinite Crisis

Why would you say that when you obviously don't know the story in question?
>> No. 200193
Gosh, I accidentally thought he was one of the many many decent characters Johns wastefully killed off in that shitstain of a story. Here, let me apologize.
Father Jack says sorry!youtube thumb
>> No. 200195
You know what? Mad Dog is pretty cool. Someone posted A bunch of Action Comics Weekly here like... Three years ago, and I DLed most of them to pick out the Mad Dog stories.

Unfortunately, that was about two computers ago, and I no longer have those stories, or the Mad Dog mini that continued the story. it's a shame. He wasn't a hardcore conservative gun nut, and was pretty chill most of the time until it came to taking out drug manufacturers and hardcore domestic terrorists.
>> No. 200197
It's sort of neat that instead of skulking about in New York (With the amount of superheroes and villains there HOW CAN THERE BE ANY REGULAR CITIZENS LEFT OVER?) or fictional big city such as Metropolis or Gotham he's a low budget vigilante in the 'Quad cities' fighting crazy terrorist groups as well as mobsters and so forth.
I believe the crator described him as a modern version of heroes such as the shadow, green hornet, etc-

Would have to say I like him more than the punisher if only because I haven't had to witness multiple retreads of "WILDDOG KILLS THE DC UNIVERSE" (I think thats been done with Punny three times or so? In separate Marvel universes obviously, one of them was basically an "I AM LEGEND" ripoff)
>> No. 200198
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>He wasn't a hardcore conservative gun nut,

Well duh. Those were the villains. "The Committee For Social Change," the "Legion of Morality"... schmucks trying to protect children from everything they think is Wrong With America, and willing to use violence to do it.
>> No. 200206

I mean, like compared to his more recent cameos, where it seems like they never actually read anything the character was in.
>> No. 200250
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>> No. 200253
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Posting the awesome Wild Dog fan comic
>> No. 200254
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The end
>> No. 200287
>No. I'm not a crazy man. I'm a Wild Dog.

>> No. 200289
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Damn fine choice of weapon, shame Jatimatic caught Lugeritis.
>> No. 200291
Kind of wish Stilt Man had a day in the spotlight.
>> No. 200292
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Stilt-Man's suit is actually a pretty cool piece of gear, its not like its ONLY a pair of extending legs (that can be pretty destructive as weapons). Its increases the wearers strength and is heavily armoured.
Slap a couple of guns on there and you have one hell of a battlesuit.
>> No. 200294
The should give him a scene in the Ultimate Spiderman cartoon. Have him rob a bank and, while Spidey is busy laughing his ass off, stilt-kick him through a building then run of with the loot.
>> No. 200298
Well Stilt Man kicked She Hulk through the street into the subway tunnel beneath it. That's kind of impressive.
>> No. 200303
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Dishonored showed the world that you don't fuck with Stiltman.

Especially when he's on drugs.
>> No. 200339
>> No. 200348
File 135523158835.jpg - (56.80KB , 784x523 , Parabellum_1586.jpg )
A gun which though ultimately superior to not only it's contemporaries but many future guns being shunned in favor of cheaper, simpler ones that are much easier to produce.

The Luger is one of the earliest and best examples, thus Lugeritis, you see it all the time in movies so it never appears that rare and while it's not exactly rare it there are few enough for it to be a commodity, during the betrayal of the American Soldiers by Colt in Vietnam, soldiers began to abandon their standard issued weapons en mass as the alternative was death, Luger was the most prized pistol for it's rugged dependability, accuracy and low maintenance.

More than 30 years after Lugers were abandoned they were still considered the best pistol on the battlefield.

Ironically the most widely used pistol ammo, 9×19 mm Parabellum, was created for the Luger.

Today the Luger is being produced again for exorbitant fees to willing collectors, but many still use it as a mainstay as even now, over 80 years later as they still function at least on par with modern side arms and are still favored by some over side arms for their action which has no slide.
>> No. 200366

>in Nam
>almost 30 years after the final production batch

>> No. 200367
>The Luger was prized by Allied soldiers during both of the World Wars. Thousands were taken home during both wars, and are still in circulation today. Colonel David Hackworth mentions in his autobiography that it was still a sought-after sidearm in the Vietnam War.

The Parabellum is Back! is actually really cool if you have a chance to read it some time.
>> No. 200374
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Learn something new everyday.

<I fucking love this guy. Loved all the Spaceknights.
>> No. 200446
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>> No. 200536
I love how this thread have basicly turned into the Wild Dog appreciateon thread.
Should I ask what he is doing in new 52..?
And to bad I can't pick favs so your not getting one from me...
>> No. 200559
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Terra is mai waifu. My poor no longer exists waifu...
>> No. 200565
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I like Orca. I know she's seen as a joke by most around here, but I like her.
>> No. 200582
Pretty sure he doesn't e><ist
>> No. 200624
Wild Dog is a poster boy for this kind of thing.
I've always heard good things about that run. Is it worth checking out?
>> No. 200647
YES. The Palmiotti and Gray run is pure fun. Drop it after issue 12 though, Winnic turns it into a soap box and kills off half the cast in the first issue
>> No. 200665
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Holy shit. Palmoitti is the writer for the Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters miniseries. I loved that. He basically gave a bunch of interesting legacies after DC used the Freedom Fighters as cannon fodder in one of their big events. He even made Red Bee cool.
>> No. 200672
Thanks for the recommendation. Soapbox for what might I ask?
>> No. 200684
That mini series was ok. Came off as Republicans are evil boohoo, as most comic book writers tend to be when they go political. Art was to die for though. DAT Phantom Lady.

There were many, biggest one I think of is the Arabic super hero gets thrown in Gitmo
>> No. 200686
I can sort of see that. However politics aside, it was great seeing these characters pick up the legacies while Uncle Sam acted as a sort of mentor. I mean let's face it DC probably wouldn't have a problem just up and forgetting these guys. The second miniseries was ok but not as good. I felt the plot was less focused.

I really want to see Uncle Sam go all out on someone just once

Steering clear of Winick then. That sounds really ham fisted.
>> No. 200780

>Came off as Republicans are evil




And so on, and so forth. Cry more.
>> No. 200968
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>>biggest one I think of is the Arabic super hero gets thrown in Gitmo
Hah, would that be that new green lantern, Baz or whatever his name is?
>> No. 200982
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You missed a good recent one. Not to say the Dems don't have their problems, and we could use more stuff like the Dem Senator in the Avengers movie demanding accountability for the Avengers right after they saved the world, but if Republicans don't like being portrayed as baddies they really need to crack down on shit like
>> No. 200992
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C'mon guys this isn't an American politics thread.

You make Wild Dog sad.
>> No. 201040

Just git the Immortal Weapons mini. Reading about these kung fu badasses while listening to Wu Tang was awesome.
>> No. 201061
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I was surprised to learn that Wild Dog had a 'sidekick, but then it turned out the Pup was one of the unwanted-fanboy types and Wild Dog was against him being around all the way, what with it being a bad idea for a dumb kid to get in the middle of a vigilante's gun battles with mobsters and terrorists.

So y'know, Wild Dog >>> Batman in terms of wilful child endangerment.
>> No. 201082
The kid gets himself shot with his antics by a woman who had been going around and killing all the men she used to sleep with before getting married, as they gave her diseases which made her unable to conceive, which caused her husband to leave her. She thought it was Wild Dog, who had been on the look out for her, but he thought it was just some weirdo shooting people at random. Turned out she felt really shitty about shooting the kid, and I think Wild Dog ends up letting her go, or she turns herself into the police or something. The Kid was last seen in a coma in the hospital. Wild Dog felt pretty shitty about the kid getting shot, mainly because he knew it would happen, and it still happened despite him trying to prevent it.
>> No. 201084

And she turns herself in from the guilt

>> No. 201086

Ah, you're right! It's been a while. Also, I remember reading this blog when I was first getting into Wild Dog.
>> No. 201087
That arc was awesome!
>> No. 201093
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>> No. 201111
Dont get me wrong, I'm blue blooded Obama voter all the way, but seeing politics bent sooo one sided just makes it seem very juvenile.

No, that was before this guy. I still have yet to hear a good reason why 9/11 is such a traumatic event in the DCU where 60,000 people are killed in a super dome, cities are razed almost monthly, and aliens are constantly invading the planet. 9/11 is Monday for the DCU
>> No. 201115
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9/11 made Doctor Doom cry.
>> No. 201122
Look, that's just the roles. You can rely on the two constants when it comes to Liberals and Conservatives in action fiction. Conservatives will give us military-gone-mad stories with jingoistic assholes willing to do Whatever It Takes to keep America Safe. And the liberals will be fodder for dumbassed psychiatrists willing to declare babyeating lunatics "sane and fit for release," whenever they're not forcing affirmative action on teams of heroes. Just accept those are the portrayals we're going to get and move on.
>> No. 201123
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Got to say I loved JSA. Kind of sucks what happened to them during the 90s. I'm loving Earth 2.
>> No. 201128
being shoved in that comic made Doctor Doom cry
>> No. 201131
The original plan with Doom was apparently just to show him (and other "baddies") vaguely lifting shit, which wouldn't have been out of character, and the Latverian embassy IS down the road...

But things sorta... went off the rails.
>> No. 201298
JSa was a fun team. I stopped reading after Gog though. I heard Vs. Kobra and All Stars was weak as shit.
And as much as I love Earth 2, I'd much rather have the JSA we knew and loved.
>> No. 201306
I was sad to see the old characters go but Earth 2 gets to be free of the bullshit of the main universe. That's fine with me. Look at what they kept Spectre in the main universe for. The spirit of vengeance is now Jesus. I wish I was joking.
>> No. 201368
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Captain Carrot and the zoo crew, shocked the Robot Chicken writers remembered who there where in the DC special. Then again Geoff Johns was one of the writers so that explains a lot.
>> No. 201381
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Cartoony animal superheroes amuse me so~
>> No. 202037
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His name was Z'reg, he was a skrull and he loved us above his home world and hi gods....He just wanted thing to end differently.....
>> No. 214717
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How many of these (DC) favourite lesser known comics characters will be in Scribblenauts Unmasked I wonder?
>> No. 216072
I know for a fact
is in
>> No. 216147
> shocked the Robot Chicken writers remembered who there where
I think you underestimate the level of nerd that Seth Green, Matt Seinreich, and Doug Goldstein all are. Robot Chicken is basically Twisted Toyfare Theater, the TV show.
>> No. 216157
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If Wilddog isn't one of the characters included in this game I call foul.
>> No. 216409
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>> No. 216424
Didn't Rom, his crew and his entire world get jobbed and killed off to build hype for the shitty new cosmic antagonist race?
>> No. 216436
Marvel can't use Rom because Hasbro owns the right to the toy. Marvel made the rest of the lore though. Yes though, the Spaceknights were slaughtered for drama. Ikon never even got to molest her Earthman.

It's a shame, Galador was really cool. I mean their tech was amazing. Rom was built from a metal Wolverine couldn't even chip and Rom was strong enough to out muscle Terrax. All the Knights were that powerful. That not even getting into their crazy weaponry like controlling solar flames, complete mastery over microwaves, lasers that can steal thermal energy or the razor force.
>> No. 216437
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There's a story that Steve Ditko briefly worked for Marvel again in the 80s on the condition he work on a book that didn't feature a broody anti hero. Marvel pointed him to Rom. Also Frank Miller drew the cover for the first issue. I get sad thinking what happened to Bill Mantlo. Poor bastard didn't deserve what happened to him.

I'd forgive Hickman if he ended Infinity with Rom annihilating the Builders by himself, just show up and start tearing them apart.
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>> No. 216461
>> No. 216462
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Sadly that was their last hurrah. Using a whole planet as fodder is shitty.
>> No. 216466
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My introduction to ROM as a child.

I wish the Annihilators were still around. The Builders wouldn't get too far. I always wanted Super Skull and a Nova to join. Maybe the Nova from Fing Fang Foom's race.
>> No. 216485
On the topic of Wild Dog:

Does anyone know where I can find scans of his stories?

All I've got is a copy of Action Comics No. 640 (>>216157) that I bought at a convention a couple months back.
>> No. 216496
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>> No. 216838
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2 days
>> No. 216839
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>> No. 216920
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No better place than the Wilddog thread to post this
>> No. 216924

Welp my mind is made up about this.
>> No. 217041
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I'm a diehard Top fanatic. One of very few.
>> No. 217533
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I was so happy to hear Robinson was doing Invaders. I thought "good, marvel's golden age barely gets attention like DCs". I was so excited thinking what other heroes he'd bring back only to find out Red Raven, Dynaman and Blazing Skull all died in one of those retarded zombie book last year. I can only hope some legacies are involved. I would say Red Raven's daughter but she got killed in Arena without even dialogue. I'll miss Blazing Skull. He was snarkier and more talkative than Spiderman. He made fun of Hitler to his face so bad he ran out of the room crying. I wouldn't mind Thin Man coming back pissed off people have just forgotten them. Wouldn't mind the cast left from The Twelve coming back too.

Also Jim Hammond>>>Johnny Storm
>> No. 217534
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His modern day look. He's not a Ghost Rider, he just meditated enough thanks to this secret empire of skull men living in the caves of Asia until he gained immunity to fire, super strength, a healing factor and the ability to make his skin invisible.
>> No. 217541

... The Blazing Skull is DEAD?
>> No. 217542
According to his wiki page he was killed by Thor's goats. Really dignified.

I just realized almost all of the people Thin Man knew died in stupid ways. Wonder how broken the poor bastard is.
>> No. 217552
The Thin Man is what you would get if George R. R. Martin was writing superheroes in the 40s. Fucking hell, that poor poor man.
>> No. 217562
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His lover was killed by Nazis.

His Liberty Legion buddies are gone. I think Blue Diamond was the only peaceful death. Jack Frost is somewhere.

His buddies in the Invaders ignored him. Cap basically dropped him when he killed Agent Axis.

The man is pissed. With good reason. I wouldn't mind him forming up a new Liberty Legion and trying to change the world.

Hes scary as shit in combat. A durable shapeshifter that can teleport and has no real qualms about killing if pushed.
>> No. 217563
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Loved Kirkman's MAX Destroyer series.
>> No. 217581
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Thin man? *wikis it*

>>Captain America hands his buddy over to the US government for killing a Nazi war criminal protected by the CIA.

...jesus christ, what a buddy fucker, I think that is worse than most of the stuff modern "trying to be as much of an asshole as Ultimate Cap" Steve has been doing in recent 616 history
>> No. 217583
It was a shitty position to put Cap in, but Agent Axis was basically bragging saying "America is shit. You can't bring me to justice, not properly, I've gotten a secret pardon from powerful people in secret and now I'm untouchable so you'd have to kill me to bring me to justice. That's how shitty America is."

Thin Man killing him was in a way saying "Yes, you're right, American Justice has failed". Hence Cap's "No, that's wrong. We needed to bring him to justice properly, and exposed anyone that thought they could protect a mass-murdering Nazi war criminal".
>> No. 217584
Why do comicbooks always have to make things so horribly hamhanded when they feel the need to do KILLING IS WROOOOOOONG/SUPERHEROES NEVER KILL storylines? Especially throwing heroes under the bus in the name of pushing their moral.
>> No. 217585
Killed by zombified goats of Thor as part of ARMOR in a as part of a mission to stop zombie nazis from spreading to other dimensions.

Marvel seems to have hardon for killing off its characters in stupid ways when they are not mainline enough that it won't lose them sales see Avengers Arena, the nonsensical Battle Royale ripoff
>> No. 217586
They really dislike each other now. They ended up fighting with Thin Man teleporting all over the place throwing Cap around like a ragdoll. Iron Man had to save him. Then again the first thing Steve asks him is why he isn't in jail.

I hate it when they kill kid characters and golden age heroes especially. Kids and old people. It's one thing if they go out kicking ass. I felt the Whizzer went out like a badass. He took out his archenemy and saved his son.
>> No. 217588
>>Bruce Dickson has been genetically modified through a scientific process developed by the people of Kahalia, to be able to convert the mass of his entire body into a highly malleable state at will, enabling him to stretch, deform, expand, or compress all or any part of his body into any shape. His costume is made of an unknown Kahalian fabric that stretches and contracts in size as he does. He most often uses his power to elongate portions of his body to the thinness of an average sheet of typing paper, enabling him to pass under a shut door. The limits on the Thin Man's powers are unknown. He can absorb the impact of a projectile shot at him or of any concussive force, within certain unknown limits, by deforming his body. When underwater he can resist intense water pressure to a superhuman extent for a period of minutes. He can become nearly two-dimensional, while his limbs can effectively become blades in the process.
>>He does not age and is seemingly immune to all known diseases. Thin Man has tremendous knowledge of the advanced sciences and technology of Kalahia, but only what he could memorize or take with him. All else is now lost.
>>The Thin Man is a good hand-to-hand combatant who was received coaching from the Patriot and Miss America. He is also an accomplished airplane pilot.

Makes sense, Cap isn't really that powerful and this guy has some badass superpowers that nullify everything Cap does. In a fight it does sound like Thin Man would be the one winning.
(Wait... how did Cap manage to hand him over to the authorities for killing the nazi war criminal in the first place?)

Where is all this talk of 'teleporting' coming from though? Since it isn't one of his powers, I suppose he is using a teleporting device? Sort of like how Deadpool used to regularly use such a thing.
>> No. 217589
He has a device to hop dimensions.

He equipped a battleship with the same tech and it served as the Invader's base for a while. They fought Red Skull, vampire cults and the U Man
>> No. 217592
File 138167729120.jpg - (21.62KB , 230x540 , http%3A%2F%2F24_media_tumblr_com%2Ftumblr_m8z2uoDp.jpg )
>> No. 217631
It was less "it's wrong to kill," and more "it's wrong to kill an unarmed Nazi War Criminal because you agree with him that America is so broken and the System is so corrupt that he can't be brought to any justice except vigilante justice". You can definitely see it as Cap being all high and mighty, but he wanted to lance the boil that had been keeping Agent Axis alive and safe, and killing Agent Axis in that way just made things worse from his perspective. It was a shitty position to put the characters in, but it was more complex than "Cap turned against an old war buddy Because Killing Is Wrong."
>> No. 217635
Damn, now I feel less regret about never reading that Marvel Zombies Destroy series. It used Howard the Duck, was written by Peter David and had amazing covers by Mike Del Mundo...but on the other hand it was Marvel Zombies 7.
>> No. 217637
File 138178559767.jpg - (12.99KB , 281x376 , 1195019-johnny_sorrow_by_skutterfly.jpg )
I wonder if Johnny Sorrow appears on Scribblenauts Unleashed.
>> No. 217638
File 138178611442.jpg - (641.81KB , 875x1182 , http%3A%2F%2Fimagescale_tumblr_com%2Fimage%2F1280%.jpg )
Thin Man did his time willingly but I think it was wrong for Cap to just ignore him afterwards. That's what makes it bad. Cap has experienced loss. He can empathize. His first reaction to seeing the Thin Man was "why aren't you in jail" after all that time.

It's sad that that is the only way Howard gets a title. Also its up to 7? Jesus.

If Peter David would work with Golden Age characters I would want a Namor book. Or a Liberteens one like his Young Justice.
>> No. 217643
>but on the other hand it was Marvel Zombies 7
Hey, while this last one sounds like totally stupid shit, at least the series gave us Marvel Zombies 3. That's gotta count for something, right?
>> No. 217821
Its like finding a dollar in the middle of a bucket of shit
>> No. 217950
File 138259459363.jpg - (288.05KB , 673x564 , LadyCop.jpg )
>> No. 217969
>Be Ivy Town's entire Police Department
>Fail to notice supercrime on every street corner
>Fail to notice that the new teacher is Giganta. Even though she keeps growing in broad daylight, and never wears a mask. Ever.
>Fail to solve the murder of Ryan Choi

Lady Cop sucks.
>> No. 217972
Uh...you just said she's one single mundane police over who apparently has to do the work of an entire department and deal with supercrime on top of it?

For fuck's sake Gotham at least has more than one officer even if have of them are on the take. She seems to be some sort of miracle worker if the town isn't Detroit-tier.
>> No. 217974
In Ivy Town the Amish carry particle disruptors.

Lady Cop isn't crappy for failing to stop crime or arrest criminals. That's understandable, that place is the front lines of a war between scifi and fantasy.

She's crappy for failing to notice what's going on around her.

(To be fair she was thrown in as a joke by Simone, and it might've gone somewhere, but all New Atom Got Fucked. Like all DC books do, eventually.

Don't read DC, kids.)
>> No. 217976
File 138265050752.jpg - (129.06KB , 800x1243 , 1357221273187.jpg )
Ivy Town isn't even that bad. Hub City is the biggest shithole ever.
>> No. 218016

Hub City is a shithole. I love that the end of the O'Neil Question run ends with the Question just running away from it because it kept getting worse and worse.

But! The actual worse city in the DCU is Vanity City from Aztek. The city is a maze designed to piss off and make its citizens go insane as part of a plan to summon some elder god monstrosity. Every hero that tried to settle in Vanity went from Silver Age Boy Scout to insane 90s bloodthirsty vigilante in just a few months.

Hub City is a city that stopped working and became a shithole. Vanity is a shithole by design.
>> No. 218019
Still beats the smoking toxic hole in the ground that we call Bludhaven.

A public flogging, tarring, and feathering (in that order) would be suitable punishment for whoever decided to Drop A Chemo On It.
>> No. 218022
So I went to a local halloween comicfest today.

Bought 22 back issues of Action Comics Weekly just for the Wild Dog stories. I wasn't planning on spending more than $20, but I found out that the issues had a 33% discount so I ended up spending $51.
>> No. 218023
What happened to Aztek then?

That's just from an attack though.
>> No. 218024
Except Bludhaven becoming a smoking pit is an IMPROVEMENT.

If they dropped another one on Hub City then DC America would be a much better place
>> No. 218028
>Except Bludhaven becoming a smoking pit is an IMPROVEMENT.
Incorrect. Nightwing exposed the corruption in the police department and brought the ringleader to justice, and between Nighwing and later Batgirl and Robin the mobs were pretty thoroughly broken up.

It was still pretty bad, but comparable to Gotham after the fall of the Falcones, Bertinellis, Vitis, Maronis, etc. It was looking up, not "a nuke was an improvement" bad. Dick should really be a lot more pissed and traumatized than he is.
>> No. 218032

Aztek was cancelled with issue 10 and then the guy sacrificed his life fighting Mageddon some time later in JLA. If Morrison and Millar planned to deal with how the city was going to start affecting Aztek, we will never know now.
>> No. 218033
Bludhaven was starting to be a somewhat nice place to live, so it had to go.

'Specially as it had all of Cass Cain's friends living here, post-Stephanie Brown's "death" and a falling out with Barbara Gordon over Babs calling Cass stupid for being having severe learning disablities.
>> No. 218035
That's sad. I remember him in JL.

Barbara actually said that? What a shitty thing to say. Did Cassandra stand up to her?
>> No. 218048
It's a bit complicated. There was a killer robot or something, it was burning a library. Babs, the ex-librarian Cass was talking to over the radio, was decidedly displeased with Cassandra's "oh well, fuck books" attitude. Then they found out that the robot could be disarmed if Cass just said a sentence from a book out loud. Oracle was all
"okay, yeah, I know you can't read, but that's okay. Just tell me the letters..."
"Yeah, just spell it out. What's the first letter?"
"Um... there's a line, and... another line... two lines. One is round..."

It was very harsh on Babs' part, but she's a librarian, Cass had been dissing books, Babs was feeling helpless on the other end of the line, lives were on the line, and holy fuck Cass even sucked at describing what letters look like.
>> No. 218056

Yeah, basically it was a combination of them being under a lot of pressure and Barbara getting annoyed that Cass could make time to work out every day but couldn't put aside time to learn some basic literacy, and that she was "stupid" for this.

Then several issues later it seems that, yes, Cass did have some form of neurological condition that prevented her from learning to read in a conventional way, so even if she kept doing Babs' method it wouldn't have worked anyway.

Several years after I first read the issue, one of my sisters was diagnosed with dyslexia... yeah, I can say that teachers who don't know why their lessons aren't sticking can be dicks about it.

Hell, my sister wasn't diagnosed until she was entering uni', and up until that point her teachers and my parents just thought that she wasn't trying hard enough, or was spending too much time with her friends when she could have been studying.
>> No. 218059
Barbara is kind of a bitch. Cain screwed her up real bad. I mean its like learning a new language on the fly. While being shot at. Barbara really needs to get off her high horse.
>> No. 218060
File 138286873017.jpg - (516.61KB , 1200x1904 , batgirl_054pg17.jpg )
The page in question, from Batgirl 54.

Babs did apologise aterwards, but it probably made Cass' move to Bludhaven a couple of issues later a lot easier.
>> No. 218121
Keep in mind the context. Lives were at stake, Cass had been getting her increasingly cranky with "books r dum" talk, and then Cass had the answer on front of her but didn't even know her ABCs, and Babs was helpless on the other end of the line. Plus Cass had been making Babs more and more frustrated because Cass was obsessed with turning her whole life into crimefighting, but Babs had been saying she wasn't well rounded and was heading for trouble (and keep in mind this was the pre-reboot Babs who had major issues wanting to control people "for their own good" after her biological father died due to his self-destructive behavior). She'd been saying over and over "there's more to life than just martial arts and vigilantism!" Cass kept replying "tldr" (or "jrd~" to be more accurate), and all of a sudden Cass got in a situation where knowing basic non-martial arts shit was necessary, and she hadn't a clue.

Babs' meltdown was painful to see, but sort of understandable.
>> No. 218218
Speaking of Barbara, who else thinks she only really became a proper character after she was crippled?

I mean she's relatively worthless as Batgirl and brings nothing to the Bat-family but awesome as Oracle and is an integral asset to the team.

If there was a new Bat-adaptation being made, and it was to feature Babs, would anyone agree it would work better to have her start off in the wheelchair without requiring being graphically paralysed and tortured by the joker (adding yet another horrific crime he walks away from to his endless list)?
>> No. 218234
Although I would admit that there are are good versions of Barbara as Batgirl (mainly the animated versions and Chuck Dixon's Batgirl: Year One, for example), she ony really became interesting once she became Oracle. To me at least.

She made for a good mentor to younger characters, in a similar way to Richard Dragon in stories related to Vic Sage, and the fact that she was the one who coordinated, not just the at Family, but also the JSA, JLA and numerous other heroes was actually pretty neat.

...Kind of made her going "off the grid" and effectively stranding dozens of heroes without her help or advice kind of stupid though.
>> No. 218235
I think I'll always have a soft spot for D-man, if for nothing else, he always gets his own seating section at the avenger's meetings.
>> No. 218239
She's way, way more useful as Oracle.

Loved D Man. I liked his Wolverine outfit.

I always found it funny that Wonder Man' Revengers were a cooler lineup than some if the modern Avengers teams.
>> No. 218240
File 138317525149.jpg - (120.82KB , 1122x869 , prv9447_pg1.jpg )
>> No. 218242
Captain Ultra's outfit is just SUPER FABUUUULOOOOOOOUUUS~~
>> No. 218256
...Definitely cooler than Luke Cage in civvies leading teams of street-level heroes for an Avengers line-up.
>> No. 218262
While I'm not a fan of his post-Bendis "random passerby that wandered into an Avengers meeting" look, you're REALLY going to complain about "street level" heroes in the Avengers?

Roll call:
Captain America, Ant Man, Wasp, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Black Knight, Moon Knight, Swordsman, Falcon, Tigra, Mockingbird, USAgent...

The Avengers aren't Morrison's Justice League.
>> No. 218266
Well I wouldn't consider some of those guys street level. I mean I thought that ment guys like Punisher or Daredevil. Captain America really doesn't fight crack dealers all the time.

I'm just amazed Wolverine isn't on the team.
>> No. 218268
It depends on how you use the definition, "Street Level" ends up referring to the heroes power level instead of dudes who as the title implies commonly are fighting mundane city street criminals
>> No. 218270
He was a fixed member for a good while, which already rustled my jimmies.

For a while it looked more like Heroes for Hire than Avengers. "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" usually have a few heavy hitters on the team because, you know... they're supposed to be saving the world occasionally and stuff.
Then again, it would be a waste of like, Thor or Herc on those stories.

(Also, I'm not sure I'd consider some of these street level, either. I guess experience kinda counts.)

Dunno, I'm just thankful for that Slott's Mighty Avengers run. At least there were some real Avengers stories in that timeframe.
>> No. 218271
A lot of the people in that list are far from mundane though. A lot of them have a firm place on the Avengers too. I mean look at it this way, if Kang is loose who are you going to want more, Captain America or Daredevil?
>> No. 218272
I did enjoy Mighty Avengers.

Hell its not even the powers that bother me. I mean Wonder Man's team was a bunch of very different personalities.
>> No. 218288
>Well I wouldn't consider some of those guys street level.

Keeping in mind that there's no set definition and people will freely disagree, Anon was using it to describe Luke's current team, likely incensed by the fact that the Avengers lineup included Spider-man, Power Man, Falcon, Spider-hero, Ronin, and White Tiger. So "street level" meaning Spider-man and lower. Guys that deal with a mugging, a bank robbery, maybe some gun smuggling. As opposed to the guys that spend most of their time fighting gods and cosmic beings. And the vaaaaaaaaaast majority of the classic Avengers fall into that Street Level definition. Spider-man's equivalent to Tigra, Power Man's equivalent to Giant Man (back when he was way less formidable), Spider-hero's equivalent to Hellcat, Ronin's equivalent to Cap, White Tiger is equivalent to Black Knight, and Falcon is equivalent to Falcon.

And the team also includes absolute tanks like She-Hulk, Blue Marvel, and Monica Rambeau. It's a solid Avengers team.
>> No. 218289
Oh. I thought he was talking about Cage's team from when Wonder Man was doing this shit. It was a pretty boring lineup. Bendis didn't help matters either.

I'm personally happy they're using Monica. She was a better Captain Marvel than Carol is. I loved her old getup too
>> No. 218303
I'd say that even if he meant Luke's other team it was too harsh. Cap's kooky quartet was Cap, Hawkeye, Quicksilver when he wasn't as fast, and Wanda back when she could maybe make some shoelaces untie.

Luke's got a super soldier serum in him (scientist tried to recreate Cap, failed and created nothing but crazy superhumans, scientist thought that maybe much watered down the serum could boost the immune system, someone interfered with the experiment, BAM Luke Cage: Power Man). Give him someone that's about as good as a crazy circus acrobat with a bow and arrow, and a couple of decent low-end superhumans and you've got yourself an Avengers team.

Although really Luke being a leader at all never sat well with me, since a big point in his 90s series was that he was totally a guy that was most successful just winging it in a fight. Very good for solo stuff, shit-tier trait in a team leader.
>> No. 218304
Straightening Monica's hair is one of the worst sins Greg Land ever committed. Nothing wrong with straightened hair, but I think this means Misty Knight is now the only notable black superheroine that doesn't it.
>> No. 218305
I just think Luke and Danny is really better than him stuck in the Avengers. Heroes and Villains for Hire with Misty Knight made me interested in the team. I wish they'd bring it back.
>> No. 218306
Blue Marvel is as stupid as the Sentry while being even more pointless and should not exist in 66 canon
>> No. 218309
>>Although really Luke being a leader at all never sat well with me
Bendis can't stop sucking his cock and he gets overpushed by Marvel. He really DOESN'T deserve to be in all these leader roles.

Speaking of Bendis he's really bad for constantly pushing his 'pet' characters while absolutely shitting on other character... and the United Kingdom for some reason?
>> No. 218312
No moreso than Claremont's raging boner for Psylocke and finding excuses to put her in everything he does.
>> No. 218313
Okay, Silverhawk? I have to point out that specifically is a illogical argument that is often used dishonestly, one thing being bad has no bearing on another thing being bad.

It just makes them both EQUALLY shitty writers.

Yes Psylocke is complete crap though, she was better before they made her an Asian Mutant Ninja Whore.
>> No. 218314
Oh, I wasn't making a statement of causality. I was making a comparative statement.
They are both bad for doing this. They are equally bad because of their tendency to do this precise thing.
>> No. 218316
File 138326405339.jpg - (61.23KB , 639x623 , Betsy Braddock.jpg )
Bring Back British Betsy
>> No. 218318
File 138326492690.jpg - (223.37KB , 1280x1761 , http%3A%2F%2Fimagescale_tumblr_com%2Fimage%2F1280%.jpg )
It's kind of cheating since they have their own title but they definitely aren't famous. At least over here.

Also Haunted Tank and Sgt. Rock since I'm in a war comics mood.
>> No. 218323
File 138326904430.jpg - (39.52KB , 300x299 , Deaths Head.jpg )
>> No. 218324
File 138327033382.png - (201.10KB , 254x391 , Mickeydevante.png )
He's going to be in Revolutionary War.

Why do kids always seem to die in comics?
>> No. 218325
Kids aren't established characters from the current writers childhood/entrenched properties with alot of sales recognition.
The companies feel they are expendable, and often kill them off in cheap gimmick stories they think will be so dramatic it will make more people buy the comic.
>> No. 218327
True. It's just kind of morbid.
>> No. 218328
Technically he was just rendered comatose, a plot thread that never got followed up on and probably never will, because you and I are the only two who read his mini and the DCU got fuckbooted in a way that was especially hard on "Legacy" characters like Vulcan, Stargirl, Obsidian, Cyclone, Black Canary, Mr. Terrific, etc.
>> No. 218329
File 138327134915.jpg - (45.46KB , 400x611 , peacemaker-3.jpg )
Hell the Charlton characters are pretty forgotten. Vulcan might well have been dead. The original Son of Vulcan got to go down fighting in a story by his original creator. Teen Titans was like a woodchipper. There's a reason I liked the cartoon more. Poor kids.

Peacemaker kicked ass.
>> No. 218330
His helmet looks silly
>> No. 218331
File 138327218116.jpg - (24.80KB , 335x512 , peacemaker_comic.jpg )
He had my favorite tagline.

Later Peacemakers dropped the helmet though.
>> No. 218332
Yeah that tagline is pretty cool
>> No. 218334
File 138327700336.jpg - (52.49KB , 414x614 , http%3A%2F%2F25_media_tumblr_com%2F5070ef1660e899f.jpg )
>> No. 218335

Is this STILL going on? I am super not a fan of Wonderman faceheel turn. Also, how fucking dumb was that "I TRIED TO ATTACK THEM TO SHOW HOW THEY WERE WRONG, BUT THAT DIDN'T WORK FOR SOME FUCKING REASON!" line?

Absolutely awful.
>> No. 218340
>Is <bad thing making Marvel/DC unreadable> still going on?

Yes. Always.
>> No. 218341
It's been over for almost two years.

Wikipedia tells me that Simon came back into the fold, help rescue Wasp from not-death or whatever and now runs PR for the Uncanny Avengers.
>> No. 218349
To me it looked like DnA managed to do in Heroes for Hire what bendis tried to do using the name of Avengers. Even occasionally including Spider-Man, Ghost Rider and the like, without keeping them fixed. If the title was actually cancelled, it's a shame.

I was gonna comment on how his stories were set around the pet characters and pretty damn bland OCs, but was kinda losing my train of thought. I mean I love some obscure characters as much as any reader, but it just didn't work. Maybe paying more atention to continuity and keeping them in character would help.

I meant both on the power level of the lineup and the threats they faced. Basically the same as say, picking Guardians of the Galaxy and bringing them to babysit Earth or whatever.

As for Cap's kooky quartet, I believe the stakes were lower back then. Don't get me wrong, I mean, I even used to love the West Coast Avengers.

Now, someone brought up U.S.Agent. I never get why writers keep bringing back that douche.

Well I wouldn't blame him, googling good pics of black women rocking an afro to trace is probably way harder than resorting to your favorite set of Sandra Bullock pictures.

Every mutant team needs a good telepath, though, and when Jean's alive (and even when she isn't), people complain she's bland or whatever.

Ok you know what, I'm gonna be that guy. I'm gonna say it. I like scantily-clad hot slutty ninjas in my comics. Sorry guys, that's just me.

Though I kinda miss classic Betsy in armor, I really liked that armor of hers. And what she had going with Doug back then was cute.
>> No. 218358

I dunno, man, I think it's kind of weird and a little creepy that the British woman is wearing a Japanese woman's body and walking around like it's not even a thing.

Anyway, this thread is about lesser known characters, right? Does Machine Man count at this point? I really love that character, and for a long time no one was really doing much with him, but at the same time he was the central character to the 2001: A Space Odyssey comic, has had a couple solo series, a few limited series, was the central character (essentially) of Earth X, was part of the Ellis cult hit Nextwave, and I think is appearing in Hickman's Avengers, but not as Nextwave Aaron.

I haven't read Hickman's Machine man, so I don't know how well written he is, but if it's Hickman on it, I'm not too optimistic.
>> No. 218360
I'm not sure I even knew about the character before Nextwave, so I'm not the best guy to tell. But if you like the Nextwave version, you really should check out Marvel Zombies 3.
>> No. 218361

That is almost exactly how I feel about Psylocke. I just have a really hard time taking her seriously because she's so...Claremont. She is all of Claremont's worst tendencies as a writer personified.
>> No. 218365
File 138333511381.jpg - (390.22KB , 989x1546 , Dai Thomas.jpg )
I remain completely baffled by people that ever thought Hickman was good. My introduction to his work was the snore-inducing Secret Warriors, featuring a bunch of Bendis-created characters I could never muster a fuck about, and completely pissing away the potential of doing a full revamp of Marvel's spy-world. Same problem with his SHIELD mini; Marvel has this rich history and tons of characters that have lived ridiculously long or have origins in the past. It would've been cool to see someone tapping into that, mixing in some real-world cool characters, and tying it together with an Illuminati-like agency. Nope, bare bones research and squandered potential. His biggest problem is that he keeps trying to do things that would work well if he did lots of research and integrated as much old cool comic stuff as possible... and he doesn't do it. Like the opposite of Annihilation by Andy Lanning, patron saint of D-Listers.

Man I'm looking forward to Revolutionary War. D-Lister badasses, D-Lister badasses everywhere!
>> No. 218368
Machine Man isn't really lesser known. since 2007 he's been a main character in:

Ms. Marvel
Marvel Zombies 3 & 5
(Red) Hulk

Plus, he's had 3 ongoings and was a huge part of Earth X, which was very popular at the time.
>> No. 218369
Abnet and Lanning didn't write Annihilation. Kieth Giffen did.

They wrote one of the four tie in miniseries and the sequel.
>> No. 218370
Ignore that last part, it was just me not actually reading all of what you wrote.
>> No. 218371
File 13833436794.jpg - (156.08KB , 800x1169 , http%3A%2F%2Fimagescale_tumblr_com%2Fimage%2F1280%.jpg )
Tell me about it. He used an entire planet as fodder. Then said he will make OC refugees.

Meanwhile Bill Mantlo can barely afford his bills, oblivious some douche wiped out years of his work in one issue. Seriously what happened to Bill was sad.
>> No. 218379
File 138336795432.jpg - (102.70KB , 667x539 , ToyFair2013-BSRomTheSpaceKnight.jpg )
In GOOD NEWS on the Rom front... HE'S GETTING A NEW TOY.

Hasbro is making a Rom: Space Knight... Transformers Botshot. But hey, at least it has them realizing they still own the character. Maybe they can like, make a Rom: Space Knight GI Joe figure that'd be in scale with the Marvel Universe line.
>> No. 218380
File 138336922297.jpg - (249.84KB , 635x807 , Fucking Universe.jpg )
In BAD NEWS on the Rom front... HE'S STILL ROM.
>> No. 218381
I want a foot tall figure with articulation and the neutralizer and scanner. Either that or a line like GIJOE size with a bunch of Spaceknights. So want Firefall.
>> No. 218382
I love they revealed she can take on their fleets AFTER this.
>> No. 218383
I always loved that the Spaceknights were so diverse in design and powers. Thank god Galador was lead by someone as chill as Rom because an army of cyborgs as strong as Colossus and tougher than Adamantium with unique powers could easily fuck shit up.
>> No. 218393
She's a shitty OC that does whatever the plot needs just like the Builders were a completely shitty cosmic antagonist race, hell they were a rehash of the Celestials but even more lame.

Jobbing and killing off the space knights to these wankers was unacceptable, I can't believe people still buy their comics.
>> No. 218394
File 138339306916.jpg - (16.46KB , 226x400 , 11374941e5d42d4bf0fe26d53af2ce79.jpg )
This armour?

And really don't be that chap my friend, you can have sexy chicks in comics with resorting to turning a respectable and noble lady into a murderous Japanese whore with a katana.
She seems to only be a ninja so she can twist enough to have both her tits and ass on show in every panel.

Is it true she wasn't originally a mutant with her superpowers, that was a retcon made later?
>> No. 218396
Yup, this armor, though I recall it being more... purple. Maybe it was the coloring in my country.
I don't know about her powers, first time I saw the character, it was already in X-Men comics, and she had already gotten new cyborg eyes from Mojo. I'm not 100% sure, but I think her other brother had some serious mutant powers, so at least that's a precedent.
>> No. 218398
File 138340352427.jpg - (34.27KB , 300x431 , Jonathan Lethem Farel Dalrymple Omega Unknown 1.jpg )

I did, i like it a lot! I also like the old school Kirby version of the character, I haven't read the Ditko version of him though, when Madame Menace stole his arm and he was depressed for a while. Also he tried to get help from Iron Man, but Iron man was too busy being drunk.


Yeah. A lot of people LOVE Claremont, but I feel like he's threason I will never really enjoy X-Men. It's like what Wolfman and Perez did to Teen Titans, it's really overblown, melodramatic, and has a complicated and tangled continuity that's really daunting to even think about, much less actually read about it. It also thrives on shock deaths that aren't actually shocking because they happened before, but everyone who writes the book was a fan of Claremont's/Wolfman's and think that's what this shit is all about.


I think it's because he comes up with interesting concepts, and gives the impression that something big and meaningful is happening, but his writing is so fucking bland, people can easily put themselves into it. He also can't write endings for shit, and I don't get why my old comic shop is so into that guy. They got me to read Nightly News, and that was half way interesting, then fell flat as hell. The ending was just so... I dunno, it made me feel like I wasted my time forcing myself to read it. Same thing with Pax Romana. I know I got super bored of his Fantastic Four run LONG before Johnny got a chance to die.

Say what you will about Bendis's writing, but at least he seemed to give a shit about the Avengers and the characters he brought back. Like, I never thought I'd miss his tenure on Avengers, but at least when Bendis used a character he should have really left alone, he used that character because he genuinely liked them and wanted to do stuff with them. Not everything about what he did with The Hood was terrible.


He also had a story in Marvel Comics Presents 2010, which is impossible to fucking find now. Alright then, if I can't have machine man, then how about...


He was a pretty cool guy and i really really liked the 2007 series, which was my first introduction to the character.
>> No. 218405
Dude has only had two self contained mini series and very few references to him outside of that in his 37 years of existence. He totally counts.

Also: if you like Nextwave Stack, give Ms. Marvel a try, and if you liked more Robotic Stack, give Red Hulk a try, though Parker's Red Hulk is the better book of the two.
>> No. 218407
>He also had a story in Marvel Comics Presents 2010, which is impossible to fucking find now.
A multi-parter, he has flashbacks of fighting drunk!Tony? I should dig it up, here. Not sure if Marvel has any intention to sell it digitally anytime soon anyways.
(Not sure but I think I recall a couple Elsa Bloodstone stories as well, back then.)

As for Claremont... well yeah, it's continuity-heavy and he seemed to throw whatever interests he currently had into the mythos, so it can feel... all over the place. Might be just nostalgia, but for me it kinda makes the story rich. For instance, I'm not sure if Days of future Past, which is a big deal on the X-Men continuity, was published a bit after Terminator hit theatres or vice-versa. And Inferno was around the time of Ghostbusters, if I'm not wrong.

Now about the shock deaths, I disagree. Usually when someone died it was meaningful to the story, and it didn't feel cheap like, say, in morrison's run. Heck even Leland from the Hellfire Club died a pretty awesome death. Yost kinda captured well the feel on his later run.
>> No. 218409
I mean, look, I respect Claremont. He took a go-nowhere property and turned it into the hottest thing in comics. The X-men name printed money for so long, even after his departure, that to this day Marvel still can't quite seem to grasp that the gravy train is over. And that came down in large part to Claremont's writing. He wrote soap-opera style, juggling lots of plot lines and characters, and he kept those balls in the air across an entire line of comics for an incredibly long time. That takes hard work, dedication, and no small amount of talent, and I have no problem giving him credit for that.

At the same time, though, it's very hard to get around the fact that he has some very deep and glaring flaws as a writer. Flaws which are only exaggerated by the sheer volume and continuity of his work; patterns which might go unnoticed in a shorter or more varied body if work stand out. Among the most notable of them are:

1. A tendency towards needless overcomplication.

2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.

3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.

4. A tendency to write female characters with his hands down his pants.

5. A tendency to play favorites and heap special status/ability on top of specialness for those favorites.

Psylocke is the epitome of all of these problems.
>> No. 218414
>2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.
It's kinda sad if these days that's a flaw on superhero comic books, though.

>3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.
That was sort of the big thing when he started, no? Movies about ninjas were all the rage.
>> No. 218424

Frank Miller might have started it, if I remember correctly... I know that his run on Daredevil was want initially inspired the TMNTs back in the black and white days.
>> No. 218426
>Claremont did Shock Deaths

While he may have played by "anyone can die" rules, at least some of the time, "Shock Deaths" is going too far. He wasn't trying to be "shocking". When he killed someone, they almost always went out in a moment of heroic glory, or making a noble sacrifice, or at the very least being a badass villain unaware the hero is about to pull a Hail Mary killshot. Compare with... oh... Whedon's "whoops a character you like got killed by a mook," Johns' "I'm going to kill 80s and 90s characters like bitches, so you'll know this is important," or Bendis' "everything Bendis has ever written".

Frankly I'll take how Claremont writes deaths over the all-too-common refrain of contemporary authors that since in real life death is often sad and pointless, it's okay to have characters die stupidly in books too. I read this shit for escapism, I don't want to see characters I enjoyed reading about dying completely depressing deaths.

>1. A tendency towards needless overcomplication.

I'd have to disagree with "needless". From a literary POV, sure. But he was trying to sell a product, a monthly comic. I wouldn't recommend his methods for a modern comic, but for something published back then? Characters like the DC mainstays were so well-established their books could be stand-alone-tales every issue and they wouldn't have to worry about readers wandering away. Newer titles like X-Men had to make sure you kept coming back for more, and the plot threads constantly being stringed along were an effective way of doing that.

It's also worth noting that he clashed with Shooter and Harras a LOT, leaving Marvel when things got bad enough with the latter. A fair number of the plot threads were left dangling or were strung out too long because he was fighting with editorial to do his stories, and sometimes lost.

>2. A juvenile sense of 'cool'.

>3. A serious case of orientalism, of the 'this is so cool and different' fetishisation variety, especially towards Japanese culture.

He also had something of a fetish for Britain. Of course he was a first generation Brit, whose family moved to America when he was three, and who read British comics growing up... but my point is that he walked on more than one cultural tightrope. But the "Orientalism" accusation is unfair. There was lots of LAAAAZY Orientalism in comics in the 60s and 70s, people with a vague idea that "the Orient is cool!" and no interest in doing research. Guys like O'Neil and Claremont Did The Research (at least as well as was possible at the time). And let's be clear here, this was a different era. The 70s and 80s saw Japan becoming the second biggest investor in America after Britain, saw unprecedented corporate alignments between the countries, and saw Japanese companies positioning themselves to be leaders in their respective fields. There's a reason so much sci-fi from the era depicted a future where Japanese and American culture were thoroughly fused: people thought it would happen. These days, of course, we know that the East Asian economic dominance will come from China, and it'll be the triads not the yakuza that one day rule the world. Duh. But considering the international nature of his book (Russians, Germans, and Canucks, oh my) NOT treating Japan like a big deal during a period when it WAS a big deal would have been a glaring omission. And he did it a HELL of a lot better than many of his contemporaries.

>4. A tendency to write female characters with his hands down his pants.
As opposed to his peers, who from the looks of it didn't write them at all, and were surprised to see the artists had added women into the finished project.

Look, the guy had/has his kinks, no shit. He was also writing women so much better than anyone else on a regular comic at the time it was ridiculous. Even Wolfman on Titans paled in comparison. Sorry, but I'm fed fucking up of people that focus on the fact that the guy clearly had a sexual interest in women, while ignoring the fact that he was doing "women as capable badasses THAT ARE ALSO well-rounded PEOPLE" at a time when pretty much nobody else was. He elevated Misty Knight and Colleen Wing from "the girls" into the women we know and love these days. Carol Danvers? He made her cool, he gave her motives and foibles of her own, and for an idea how she fared with others just hang around in a Captain Marvel thread for five minutes. Someone will point it out. Storm, Jean Grey, Shadowcat? Invented the third, made the second one useful and powerful (she was pretty much useless or a convenient hostage before), and Storm he made the X-Men's best leader. To see how his peers wrote a woman leader, just look at Shooter's Wasp. Or do yourself a favor and don't, it's a pretty cringeworthy mix of attempts at badassery mixed with flighty woman stereotypes worthy of Zsa Zsa Gabor (or Rarity the pony, for people too young to get that reference). He didn't just write women that could kick butts and take names (itself a rarity at the time), he gave them their own fears and motives, and basically treated them like they deserved to be good characters. And he did it at Marvel, the company where Wasp and Sue Storm spent their first ten years constantly apologizing for being silly useless women, and he did it beside John Byrne, whose attitude toward women frankly stinks. And people bitched at him constantly in the letters pages about how his "feminism" was emasculating all the male characters, male readers, and probably America.
>> No. 218437

I'm pretty sure Claremont was writing X-Men before Miller started on Daredevil. TMNT was indeed inspired by Miller's Daredevil, but was supposed to be more of a parody, and I think it was originally supposed to be a one-shot (Hence the Turtles killing Shredder in issue one). TMNT ended up evolving, over time, into pretty much whatever Eastman and Laird were into at the time, hence the storyline where the turtles befriend a robot with a human mind and go to space.

Also, I want to clarify that I don't think Claremont did shock deaths, but inspired the writers who came after him to do so in an attempt to emulate his style. It's somewhat similar to all the gritty "Mature" comics that followed Watchmen, in that they were trying to emulate what they thought made those comics so great, but ended up missing the point.

Claremont may not have made X-Men unreadable himself, but everyone that came to the books later sure as shit did doing their best to emulate his style which had become associated with the book.

That said, the man wasn't above stupid contrived plots. Like that time the X-Men go into Space and Collossus suddenly freaks the fuck out and bursts out of his space suit since his brother apparently died going into space, while Ororo suddenly comes down with a severe case of claustrophobia. That stuck with me for some reason.
>> No. 218439

I never said that these were problems unique to Claremont, or even that he was worse about them than other writers. But they ARE problems with his writing nonetheless.

I do appreciate him writing female characters and giving them important roles and agency; I just wish he hadn't been so obviously masturbating while he did. Those aren't exclusive or contradictory positions. Likewise he was a long way from being the only person to fetishize Japanese culture at the time, but that makes it no less orientalist or embarrassing in hindsight.

(Like seriously, having an upper-class British woman literally appropriate the appearance and trappings of a Japanese woman without taking on any of the culture is so incredibly orientalist that even Edward Said might be a bit shocked. It could pass as parody if Claremont wasn't so straight-faced about it)

Again, I respect Claremont. Almost all of his run is readable, and much of it is quite good. The comics only fell on their face when Marvel misattributed the success of the X-Men to the artists, pulled Claremont off the titles, and replaced him with a bunch of hacks who wanted to be him but couldn't keep those balls in the air the way he had.
>> No. 218448
>But they ARE problems with his writing nonetheless.

Okay, but, see... I'm disagreeing. Hard. He could be too verbose, and too complicated, sure. The latter could be excused a bit since it was partly due to him trying to ensure readers would keep coming back, and he had conflicts with editorial as well, but I can agree that those are problems.

The claim that "he wrote women with one hand down his pants"? That's incredibly unfair. Incredibly unfair. It's unfair when looking at what else was being written at the time, and it'd be unfair if his stuff came out now. Half the strong female chars in the X-books (i.e. half the strong women in mainstream comics) are a direct result of his writing. Rogue? He took a character universally reviled for what she did to Ms. Marvel (a character people gave a damn about because of Chris) put her on the X-Men and made people love her. Rachel is his, Mystique is his, Jubilee, Shadowcat, the New Mutant gals and so on.

But while it'd be unfair to say that about him now, it bears repeating that when he wrote these stories Black Canary was macho Green Arrow's arm candy, Invisible GIRL was literally being written whimpering and complaining about the men, hiding in corners while they did the fighting, Wasp was a ditz obsessed with clothes and hunks, and the less said about Supergirl the better. Those were the headline act women at the time.

And the "He drew upon Japanese culture several times, which is Orientalism and bad" talk frankly bugs me. He made heavy use of characters from a number of cultures. He gave us the Demon Bear storyline and made Dani Moonstar a big part of New Mutants. Was he wrong to use Native American culture? Or for all the stuff he did "across the pond" creating Excalibur, Captain Britain, Moira, Siryn, and Wolfsbane? Or the stuff in Australia? I'm not saying it was all done well, but Japan was becoming a major economic powerhouse. It SHOULD have been the focus of several stories in any books that tried to be international in scope. It's depressing that stories trying to tap into their rich culture required a Westerner as a main char, but the sad truth is that even now it's hard to sell stories set in "the far east" or even "middle east" without a Westerner as one of the male leads. Hell, its hard to sell a story about Native Americans without a non-native American. But I reject the notion that giving Wolverine ties to Japan was something bad.
>> No. 218449
> That's incredibly unfair.

Hardly. Especially in recent years, few professional comic book writers are as blatant with their fetishes in the stories they write as Claremont is.
>> No. 218455
File 138352368812.jpg?spoiler - (174.06KB , 600x831 , 6.jpg?spoiler )
>Into bondage
>Fine with fanservice
>Suspiciously close friendships
>Characters WON'T SHUT UP
>Still writing some of the best women in comics

It keeps happening...
>> No. 218457
File 138352462027.jpg - (172.79KB , 600x413 , image.jpg )
>The claim that "he wrote women with one hand down his pants"? That's incredibly unfair. Incredibly unfair.

It really, really isn't.

I can't really comment on Dani since I don't know the character very well. My guy says 'probably' because I can count on literally one hand the number of non-native writers who have used Native American myth in their works where it wasn't incredibly embarrassing. And the man is himself a Brit so...yeah.

I don't know why you think the man needs defending so strenuously. I've said several times that I like his work (at least his initial run, everything he's done since Exiles had been nauseating). I just don't think it's perfect. And Psylocke is all of his worst habits combined Voltron-style.
>> No. 218463
who created British Betsy?
>> No. 218470
Your pic's from Inferno, in which Madelyne Pryor was the main villain, and one of the deadliest opponents the X-Men ever faced. Specifically it's from the scene where Sinister captures her, reveals that she's a clone and her whole life is a lie, orders her killed for being imperfect and weak, and promptly learns that he vastly underestimated her. She went on to bring the X-Men to their knees in Inferno, at a time when an effective female villain was a rarity (a time which hasn't passed...), but was also portrayed as a complex and conflicted character.

To be clear, it's not so much that I'm defending him (he was far from perfect, any many of his stories haven't stood the test of time), it's that I have considerable problems with two of your criticisms.

He had his kinks, but they didn't prevent him from being a couple decades ahead of every other writer in the industry when it came to writing women (hell, he had a better batting average than most mainstream writers do now). The trend of just looking at his quirks and dismissing everything he did in terms of writing women even though EVEN NOW most writers don't show them as much respect as he did? That's... really sad.

But what really rubs me the wrong way is the assertion that there's something wrong about a white guy trying to set some stories in Japan, in books meant to have a global scope, written during a period when Japan was emerging as a major power. That's the sort of flawed reasoning that ends with people claiming Avatar: The Last Airbender is "Cultural Appropriation" (or "Orientalism" if you'd prefer).

Saying that Claremont was allowed write Americans and Brits (despite growing up in America) but not Japanese or Native Americans like Dani is like saying Larry Hama was okay writing Americans and Japanese (third generation, he'd never been to Japan), but never should've been allowed write those stories with Russians or Native Americans like Spirit (Native Americans have the worst luck).
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