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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

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378874 No. 378874
Since Bard retired the old one, here's a new thread for all your kinks, sex politics, Freudian analysis, and whatever other weird shit related to the horizontal Monster Mash that lies within /baw/'s shriveled little black heart.
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>> No. 378875
i know i have no mod powers but if you mods have a soul, please kill anyone in this thread who proclaims to be some kind of expert on terminology, sexuality, and gender without putting forth some kind of believable justification for their opinions.

just because you think or feel strongly about something, that does not make you more right than anyone else. it's just bad rhetoric, guys.
>> No. 378877
I think some people were trying to be experts, and some people were saying "I can't speak for everyone, but here's how I feel in terms of sex."

I still feel identifying as [whatever you want] doesn't hurt anyone, and people are getting too uptight about it. And to be honest, it was getting me uncomfortable seeing people gang up on one or two people about stuff. I don't know why when people talk about sex, it leads to hostility whenever two people are wired differently and think there's only one right way to do things.
>> No. 378879
I'll try to keep a closer eye on this thread. It was a pointless argument, so hopefully I can head those off in the future and folks can spend more time talking about dicks and butts and awkward propositions from super old people or whatever.

Also, I'm not Bard.
>> No. 378883
S'alright. Whatever you deem fair.

While I'm here, I could always use some dating tips, or feedback on whether or not it's best to know someone first before dating them. So far, my relationships have either all ended in mutual deciding we work better as friends, or fuckers I severed relationships with because they upfront told me they planned to have sex with me and several other people on the side, and that our relationship was mostly out of a need for sex. So I wasn't going to lose my virginity to those kinds of people.

I guess what I'm looking for is monogamous best friend with benefits, or something, zero preference on appearance or gender, trans* totally okay, doesn't drink much, no weed or cigs (gives me headaches), low sex drive with possibility of increase once we're situated. Just don't know where to look. Having friends with very specific physical kinks I don't fit into doesn't help.
>> No. 378884
>I don't know why when people talk about sex, it leads to hostility whenever two people are wired differently and think there's only one right way to do things.
You can blame the Sakeesian's of the world, the tumblr generation that has truly poisoned the discussion hole. These are the people that go "this thing/person/action/word/whatever isn't ACTUALLY discriminatory, but I'm going to say it is because it'll get me all kinds of attention!" They take away credibility from genuine discussion on such topics and sour the attitude of everyone, casting claims regarding genuine issues in a suspicious light.

That, and whenever you start making up words to describe yourself (or anything really), people are probably going to think you're pretentious.
>> No. 378887

Are you sure it's not just because some people are so perfectly ordinary (especially sexually) that they automatically think anyone who is different is just trying to get attention?

Because that's what everyone says about pride parades and all that sort of thing. And back before they added a Q and I to the LGBT, they were saying it about them. And back when they didn't even allow the B or T in with the L and G. And back when the B was just seen as a depraved monster instead of a legitimate orientation. And back when even L and G was, too.

Face it, they're putting everyone into a gigantic club, YOU AREN'T INVITED, and that makes you angry. They're the LGBTIQADPZ's, and you are all alone over there with the other S's, branded as "normal" — as if the word normal means something bad and doesn't actually unlock easy-mode in the world.

But look on the bright side: pretty soon being a normal straight guy or girl will be so uncommon that you'll get your fair share of discrimination and dismissal, too. Then you can play the victim card and feel good about yourself, and wonder why it is that nobody cares about your problems.

(All sorts of queer folk don't necessarily want special treatment — they just want to be acknowledged as existing in the first place. Which, for some reason, you gain GREAT pleasure in denying. As if it even affects you.)

"There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking."
- Alfred Korzybski
>> No. 378890
>Face it, they're putting everyone into a gigantic club, YOU AREN'T INVITED, and that makes you angry.
Does it now? Please, tell me more about how I feel.
>> No. 378891
I dunno. I think most of what people are mad at Anita Sarkeesian about is stuff she hasn't actually said, and I don't take "Tumblr said" as a measure of anything, because there's a million plus people on that site, and they're not a hivemind when it comes to any topic.

I agree with >>378887 for the most part. There are still people in the gay community who have trouble accepting transgender and bisexual people, and both straight and gay people have ignored asexuality. I don't think anyone's flaunting anything, they just want to know where the hell they stand and put a word to explain how they feel.

That isn't to say there isn't a lot that gay, straight, etc. people can empathize with others outside their orientation on when it comes to sex, though.
>> No. 378896
>Are you sure it's not just because some people are so perfectly ordinary (especially sexually) that they automatically think anyone who is different is just trying to get attention?
There are also a lot of us who fit into those made-up categories, and feel that it trivializes people who have real problems by making up labels for something that no one actually gives a shit about. It comes off as middle class, heteronormative white people clinging desperately to the idea that they, too, can be oppressed minorities and therefore get all that attention that minorities get. Which is disgusting in pretty much every way imaginable.

The fact that it's so often teenagers involved in this stuff, an age group that is notorious for their tendency to try to make everything about themselves, is doubly damning.
>> No. 378898
How do you know these people are white, heteronormative teenagers to begin with? I don't personally know what anyone who's ever posted on this site looks like, or how old they are.
>> No. 378900
we do have a surprising number of both ladies and non-whites. But they seem shy.
>> No. 378901
I think they were just suggesting that the tone with which some people claim things of themselves comes off as someone without a lot of problems trying to invent more so that they can feel like they have an outside reason for feeling terrible other than just blaming themselves for their problems. Kind of like self diagnosis with Autism, most people who do that are just trying to garner sympathy, they don't have real issues.

The thing with the word in question is precisely that it comes off as that sort of word. There's no scientific backing to it, no studies to back it up, not even failed studies we could examine, and most of its' definition seems to be controlled by 16 year old girls on the internet, in addition to resembling normal parts of a relationship anyway.

For all I know, it could be a legitimate thing, certainly would explain some things. But in a field already rife with misunderstanding and a large degree of unknown elements, it has less legs to stand on than say, Homosexuality or Transgenderism. If anyone has any documents like that, I'd love to see them.
>> No. 378902

I think that bit refers mostly to the Tumblr userbase, which…yeah, safe to consider the majority of that userbase as mostly white teenagers (class notwithstanding) looking for an identity of their own.

(In all fairness: I’m a white thirty-two-year-old Tumblr user with the maturity level and mindset of a teenager looking for his own identity.)
>> No. 378904
Yeah, you guys got it. I didn't mean they were literally all white, middle class, or heteronormative. I was using an extreme example of an obviously privileged class of people who have no ACTUAL problems, who seem to be some of the biggest offenders of inventing problems to get attention or feel special.
>> No. 378905

Which, in a sense, I can understand from a purely sociological point of view.

Doesn’t make them any less stupid for trying to appropriate the identity (sexual or otherwise) of other existing groups/people for their own purposes, though.
>> No. 378907
Just because you think people are inventing problems doesn't mean they don't have any, even if their problems are totally unrelated to what you think they're making up.
That's a very dangerous mindset to have.
Sage cause this post isn't about dicks, in a literal sense at least.
>> No. 378912
>privilege discussion
Mod Jebus I thought you were going to be keeping a closer eye?
>> No. 378920
We have to sleep, too, you know. And so far this is fine; the discussion at the end of the last thread just became a tennis match, with roughly the same ideas being hit back and forth, which is why it was poor form. Discussion is still about sexuality, just the indirect tumblr community, which fits the topic.
>> No. 378921
>We have to sleep
What? What about your meth?
>> No. 378922
i appreciate it :)
>> No. 378934
Offtopic, but I was under the assumption that the majority of the posters on this site were female (including myself) until proven otherwise, and that it was males who were the exception.
>> No. 378936
I'm a lady, at least. I'm still in the process of considering namefagging.

I think something close to this. Most people, regardless of upbringing, have felt ostracized at some point. Regardless of whether it's justified, I think the answer is to tell people "what you are feeling is normal, don't worry about it". I mean, I've seen people who were bullied to the point of being suicidal in school just because they had different interests or weren't supermodel-tiers of attractive, and people were leaving them death threats. Just for that.

To note: I assumed most of my Tumblr followers were female or white, and more than I expected ended up as Asian, African-American, Latino, non-American, or male.
>> No. 378939
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>think pregnant chicks are hot as fuck
>do not want kids ever
>neither does your partner
>tfw you will probably never get to live out your fantasy/fetish
>> No. 378940
> the assumption that the majority of the posters on this site were female (including myself) until proven otherwise

I don't know why though.
>> No. 378941
I've been working under the assumption that it's 60-40 Straight male to Female/LGBT. It's hard to follow the sex of anon. D:

I know that feel, bro, and I don't even have an SO. However, if you happen to be in Nevada you can probably find a pregnant prostitute; if you don't, I have referrals to "escort" sites that allow you to search for that kind of thing...
>> No. 378943
Let her fuck some guy that will make her pregnant
>> No. 378948
...That wasn't anon's problem. Neither he nor his partner wants kids, so her getting pregnant isn't worth dealing with actually having a kid or the affects of an abortion just for 7ish months of hot pregnancy sex.

Hence why I suggested he look into finding a pro that is already pregnant.
>> No. 378951
Well that's pretty silly. I guess he could talk with his partner about it and see what she says.

>7ish months
inb4 derail
>> No. 378952
>It's hard to follow the sex of anon. D:

Anon is a trans-fluid polydactyl amBIguously biFURcated pan-romantic multiphallic polymorph and proud of it. Show some respect.
>> No. 378956
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>> No. 378962
One of my best friends is in that situation, too. I don't think it's super uncommon.

I've been in a similar case. I've wanted to try pegging, but I've never met a guy who was into it (idiots who think liking anal stimulation makes you gay), or I have fetishes that can't be satiated in real life (tentacles, futa/shapeshifting, catgirls). It sucks, I'll say that much.
>> No. 378964
Try surrogacy?
>> No. 378979
I was just thinking about this cause I'm weird; I've heard that heterosexual people finding opposite-sex homosexuality so erotic is in part due to when viewing something like hetero porn, some people will feel some subconcious envy/insecurity for the person of the same sex in the situation. Therefore, opposite-sex homosexuality will sometimes be preferable because you're essentially getting twice the eye-candy with none of the feeling of threat.
For me personally, this explanation is enough for my own experience of sometimes having eroticized it, but I find it insufficient to explain something like nerds obsessing over homosexual fan-pairings, especially considering that I've encountered a number of lesbians who are obsessed with yaoi, and read and write it exclusively.
I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but it occured to me that such people might be wanting to experience these things vicariously--it's the only rational explanation my relatively sheltered mind can come up with for things like guys being into futa, and girls writing about male-pregnancy.
>> No. 378982
There is never just one reason for any human behavior that isn't an autonomic function.

Men looking at lesbian porn is mostly the lack of threat thing, though. Women into m-preg is mostly the vicarious thrill.
>> No. 378983
Scratch that last part actually, as intersex fetishes aren't the same as what I was talking about, it just somewhat relates to my unfounded hypothesis of people living vicariously through the opposite gender, but by applying an element of the familiar, rather than people merely eroticizing opposite-sex homosexual pairings.
The lesbian yaoi fangirl thing confuses me--I had never given much thought to Freudian penis/vagina envy, and I may be (probably am) completely wrong, but it's weird that being part of nerdy fandoms is what made me curious.
>> No. 378985
There's actually been some research that suggests that even straight men may sometimes be more turned on by the presence of penises than women are. It's all about symbolism with some guys, apparently, and a cock represents sexuality to them--they don't want it going into them or anything, but seeing one excites them because they associate it with their own. And those types of guys make up a significant if not majority chunk of the avid viewers of hermaphrodite or futanari porn.
>> No. 378986

>And those types of guys make up a significant if not majority chunk of the avid viewers of hermaphrodite or futanari porn.

To wit: I pretty much discovered my bisexuality thanks in large part to herm/futa/dickgirl furry art. (DAMMIT DOUG WINGER. DAMMIT FERRIS. LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO ME.)
>> No. 378987
That makes sense.
Anything on the lesbian yaoi/m-preg thing?
>> No. 378990
The lesbian/yaoi thing is very strange to me, I'm a lesbian and find nothing of value in yaoi at all, and I don't know any other lesbians that are in it.

I suppose it could have something to do with how most yuri on the internet is male-written and not cute and fluffy, while yaoi, being female-written, might have that cute adorable feeling they were looking for, with a homosexual pairing?
If it's explicit dumb gay rape yaoi however, I got nothing.
>> No. 379001
A lot of lesbians who are super into yaoi often say that they're somehow attracted to fictional male characters but they're not interested in men in real life. Maybe it has something to do with how the characters act in those comics that is distinctly unmasculine? Interest in slash might be a thing largely because male characters tend to be more realised in fiction while female characters are in the background or taped to a love interest and primarily interact with men instead of other women. There is often a lot more mining to do with guy/guy than there is... pretty much any other kind of pair, including het, since the male characters are the ones who have complex relationships with one another, and who canonically depend on each other for reasons completely unrelated to sexual tension. They're on equal footing, narratively. Unless it's a story about women written by women (even then, sometimes...) the girls and their complex friendships and rivalries with each other aren't explored with as much vigor or given as much screentime as relationships with dudes included in them. There are exceptions to this like there are exceptions to everything, but it is an overwhelming trend. Look at the amount of stories out every year (movies, books, TV shows, comics, video games) that routinely fail the Bechdel test.

And of course it's possible that lesbians who like yaoi are not Kinsey scale 6s and just greatly prefer dating women, even though they have some potential to be attracted to men too--saying they're gay just makes it easier.
>> No. 379003
I see. Thanks for your input!
If I recall correctly, the yaoi in question turned out to be some weird enemy hate-sex, which seems to be pretty standard as far as a lot of fangirl-written yaoi goes, but I doubt that it fits the criteria of being cute and fluffy.
>> No. 379010
This is also something I've noticed and am very curious about as well. I've seen many self-described lesbians squealing over yaoi the same exact way a heterosexual female in the 12-year old stages of fangirlhood would, even if it's of the kind of hardcore cumdrenched bear porn pics more popular with real-life gays, or the horrid tripe you'd find in published shoujo that even adult women who like male/male relationships are quick to revile.

Case in point, for one of my part-time jobs my boss was a serious middle-aged lesbian in a relationship who was pretty open about finding other women hot, yet had a massive boner for Darren Criss's character on Glee and would not stop gushing about how hot and sexy and talented he was every single week, even though the other guy was a far better actor (and better looking too IMO, at least off the show since something about the show's lighting is distinctively unflattering to everyone), and even though the lesbian pairing was written a hundred times better anyway (not that it says much because the writing is terrible at best and flat-out offensive at worst).
>> No. 379014
I think (at least from what I've seen), it's partially this and partially people who are pro-gay rights and are more into the excitement of the idea of there actually being gay pairings in canon. Because I know there have been scenes in a series where the characters even pointed out how gay a scenario was, but male fans were really quick to dismiss any possibility of that character actually being gay. Some (in one fandom I'm in) seemed like they'd change their minds on a game they liked were any of the characters to be officially outed. I knew someone who insisted all gay canon characters that actually existed existed only as fangirl bait.

With hatesex, I don't get it either, although I have met some couples where they were constantly about to kill each other, but insisted it kept their relationship strong, and were really averse to anyone trying to suggest that they break up.
>> No. 379019
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The appeal of enemy hate-sex to yaoi fangirls mystifies me, as there seems to be a relatively immense audience for it among fangirls, if fanfics are any indication. I discussed it briefly with a friend, who admitted to being into yaoi (but not of the hate-sex variety), and it mystifies her as well.
I assume it's because the element of conflict adds drama, but from what little I've read it tends to be poorly executed or not focused on. Then again, I've only read a bit out of curiousity, and a lot of people seem to agree that regardless of genre or intent behind it, genuinely good fanfics tend to be hard to find.
It's weird, but I find myself kind of fascinated with the sexuality of fangirls who seem to be exclusively fascinated with the (oftentimes non-canonical) sexuality of male characters.
>> No. 379021
Weirdly enough, all of the "hatesex" I've seen in real life was between heterosexual couples. People who got into loud fights and used to slap each other in public or get on each others' nerves intentionally. I never thought it was sexy or cute.

I think depending on the series, it can be a "no answer", where a character's never confirmed to be either gay, straight, or possibly bisexual, but straight male fans will insist the character could never be gay, because he was never officially outed. And that kind of pisses me off that it's not even an option.
>> No. 379023
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>but straight male fans will insist the character could never be gay, because he was never officially outed
Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, as I am somewhat intoxicated, but are you suggesting that yaoi fangirl hate-sex pairings are a response to this, or that yaoi fandom in general suffers from prejudice from straight males?
Perhaps we have different fandoms, or parts of fandoms, in mind, but I have not experienced this within fanbases I've been a part of, which are pretty open-minded and accepting. Sometimes the yaoi-fangirl demographic will actually dwarf the people who ship other pairings. Not that a stigma against these pairings doesn't exist--I'm aware that it does.
Regardless, I was just pondering things I've noted from personal observation, and I apologize if I hit a sore spot for you.
I need to go pass out now.
>> No. 379027
Nono, it's fine.

To clarify, what I meant is that men and women who write slash (as some of my fandoms do have a decent gay male following), even though they dwarf the other fans in terms of fan content, they don't dwarf the fandom as a whole. I still think people who enjoy a thing just as itself generally are a larger group than people who enjoy it and do fanart/fic. And the slash-ers have a lot of trouble convincing non slash-ers that the characters could actually be canonically gay. I have run into people who say "The character I like could never ever be gay ever no ew gross he's too manly..." and other bullshit. To be fair there are also a lot of women who don't ship slash and do the same thing.
>> No. 379029
From the way I've encountered it, people getting defensive about characters not being gay seems to have come about as a reactionary thing. A lot of it usually occurs in the fandoms with an enormous body of often vocal yaoi shippers who insist delusionally that a character HAS to be gay and if you don't ship it along with them or think that there's a lot of Ho/Foe Yay regarding said characters to begin with you're just homophobic or in denial. Doesn't occur to them that the gayness isn't part of why you dislike the pairing, or that you might ship other gay pairings yourself. If you disagree you're just a hater.

That kind of mindset has only died down fairly recently now that it's more in the open due to the above reactionary folks, some the result of said frustration and others just plain old bigots, butting heads with them, as well as the emergence of saner shippers pointing out how ridiculous of a mindset it is, though it's still alive and kicking in many places (even on /a/, such as in the infamously terrible Tiger and Bunny threads for example).

And let's not even get into the misogynist side of females shipping dudes together. We've all witnessed it one way or another, and people could delve into all sorts of academic sociological or feminist discourse over it, but at the end it usually really boils down to "she could perceivably keeping him from boinking the other guy therefore I hate her because MUH PORNS".
>> No. 379030
I think it's a little of both. I have been that person shipping gay and straight in the same pairing, or the person who says "I kinda don't ship so-and-so with anybody", and I've gotten people mad, although nobody's called me a homophobe for it.

I think I did annoy someone once unintentionally by saying that series like Adventure Time and Homestuck ship characters around so wildly that I can't tell what sexuality anyone is supposed to be.
>> No. 379033
Most of slash fiction and the backlash against it is just because people like to identify with their favorite characters. The more the character is like YOU, the more you identify with them. Taking their sexual orientation — which is almost invariably an extremely big part of everyone's life — and making it the opposite of you results in you feeling a painful disconnect. It's like finding out that a lover has cheated on you, or your parents aren't your biological parents, or the like.

Basically, people live vicariously through characters in fiction, and having them come out as the opposite of you makes you feel betrayed, as they were previously living a lie. I know the feeling. Watching a long canon storyline where an ambiguously gay male character that showed no interest in girls and has close relationships with boys, suddenly get a girlfriend, is legitimately heartbreaking. It makes me feel as if my own orientation is invalidated, somehow. I can imagine the exact same feeling can happen to straight people who find out a favorite character was gay, rare though that occurrence is.

So gay people — because there are basically zero fictional characters of any importance who are homosexual — slash the protagonists so they can feel a sense of belonging, a connection that isn't as strong as when that character is going around all day banging the opposite sex. Straight people take offense because the people doing the slashing are interfering with what they see as the character's normal state, which weakens their own personal connection.

This explains why lesbians can like yaoi (and to a lesser degree, the opposite — as I feel gay men are more likely to think women are icky than gay women think men are icky). In a world where all the men are having sex with each other, women of course have sex with women. It's sort of a validation-by-implication; and of course the entire LGBT fraternity feeling plays a part.

Of course, it doesn't help that in real life, people often lie about, take actions against, are in denial of, or even don't even KNOW, their "real" orientation. It devalues and casts doubt upon any canon evidence or even frank statement of any character's orientation because parallels can be made to real life. You can say a character might be gay even if he's married to and has sex with his opposite-gender spouse, because that happens in real life. You can claim a character is gay even though he says he is straight, because that happens in real life. You can say that a character is straight even though he claims he is gay, because he (or the author, by proxy) is just trying to get attention, like some claim can happen in real life.

In any case, it makes me wonder. Given the ambiguity of what is even SEEN regarding real people, why isn't there a subset of fiction regarding characters ACTUALLY being a different gender or race than what is initially perceived. These are other, very basic parts of a person's identity. After all, in real life, people can be medicated or wear makeup that make them appear to be a different race (like Micheal Jackson or the narrator from Black Like Me). Why aren't black people going around digging up evidence that a white character is actually a negro in some kind of disguise, just so they can feel closer to that character? Would that be too ridiculous? There is a made up black Santa Clause, but nobody goes around claiming he's REALLY black; and there is historical evidence showing Jesus Christ (at least in a real-person-in-a-historical-setting context) was pretty solidly arabic, and not a straight-haired Aryan guy, but basically all portrayals that aren't a kind of civil-rights metaphor has him as white.

Why don't women do the same for canonically male characters? I realize that KINDA exists with Rule 63 content, but that is always portrayed as an alternate-universe or tongue-in-cheek parody. It's never a vehement INSISTENCE that said character is ACTUALLY a female and you just can't see it, and there is all sorts of "evidence" to prove it. Why isn't there a huge subset of fiction where male characters are revealed to be women? Why aren't there hoards of people with evidence showing that Spock must actually be a women, because he's hiding his true (feminine) emotions and is protective of Kirk (like a mother) and because screw-you-this-is-Star-Trek so making a woman look like a man is easy beans? It's not even that hard, given that people have been convincingly crossdressing for as long as people have been around. GI Jane passed for a man. Joan of Arc could have passed for a man. So... why has nobody invented Alexandra of Macedon? There's sure enough debate over whether or not he was gay (notwithstanding that such a thing was irrelevant back then). There are debates over whether William Shakespeare was gay, or if he even wrote all the things attributed to him; where are the arguments that he was a women, or Chinese instead of English?

Do we as a culture believe sexual orientation is more malleable than gender or race or anything else? Because the existence of loads of fiction claiming characters are the opposite sexual orientation from canon, and absence of anything similar regarding race and gender identity would seem to suggest that. This is all a bit off-topic, but it's just something to think about.
>> No. 379040
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>Why don't women do the same for canonically male characters?
If anything, I've encountered women doing the opposite. Despite Sheik being canonically female, the amount of Link/female Sheik I've come across I can count on a single hand, while the overwhelming majority is essentially genderswapped yaoi. And it's a very popular pairing. While I think Sheik was meant to be androgynous, straight fangirls seem to far prefer that she be male rather than accepting her as an interesting female character. I find this both fascinating and concerning, as it seems to remove an element of familiarity that would allow them to identify as Sheik and also seems to be a self-inflicted step backward.

I don't claim to know what I'm talking about, but it seems to go back to >>378982 >>378983 with the implication that fangirls get some vicarious thrill out of it, which also kind of concerns me.

I dunno. I'm probably just misinterpreting or taking nerd-dom too seriously.
>> No. 379099
>as I feel gay men are more likely to think women are icky
This is true from experience, axe wounds are disgusting.

>Why aren't black people going around digging up evidence that a white character is actually a negro in some kind of disguise
Because characters in manga etc are pieces of art, they are drawings on a page. It's easy to change the storyline to something you like and still keep the appearance looking the same so someone else reading your fanfic understands who you're talking about. Changing appearance confuses everyone BUT you, there's no point in posting fanfiction like that.

What if I made a gay top character 6 foot 7, buff and handling a minigun instead of a sword, then called this character Link?
Or what if I made a character that looked exactly like Link but called him Zelda?

At that point it's not fanfiction anymore, it's just fiction, my fiction.
>> No. 379102
>Why aren't black people going around digging up evidence that a white character is actually a negro in some kind of disguise, just so they can feel closer to that character?

I'll overlook your use of the word "negro", but it seemed a little tasteless, even if that wasn't your intention.

While I haven't seen black people trying to prove a white character is really black, I have seen them treat dark-skinned or ambiguously brown characters like they're African-American-black. But by far the worst offenders of racial denial/misinterpretation are the people who insist pale, light-skinned characters are really "white", particularly with, but not limited to, anime characters and other Asian characters. Look no further than the Racebending fiasco that happened not too long ago for evidence of this.

>axe wounds are disgusting

If you think about it, both axe wounds and skin sausages are pretty gross, but it's all subjective. That's why humans have biological urges like lust, and possibly love, to overlook the fact that they're just rubbing ugly pieces of flesh together for the purposes of momentary pleasure, bonding, and/or procreation.

I completely agree with what you wrote about radically altering a character's appearance while still claiming them to be the same character, but haven't you ever run across fanfics or fanart that does exactly that? Some people will stop at nothing to turn a character into their own personal waifu/husbando or self-insert.
>> No. 379104
Anime characters are probably a bad example--they're intentionally drawn in a racially ambiguous way (known as "mukokuseki"), and unless their heritage is noted in some manner, it's best not to make assumptions. Hell, in anime-land, the only way you can tell an American on sight is that apparently all Americans are seven feet tall, blonde, and lantern jawed. Or if they're women, six feet tall, blonde, and stacked.

The Racebending thing was more because, culturally, all the characters were clearly asian by culture, and even physically everyone fit into asian phenotypes--everyone except old people and the one who was Touched By Vorlons had black or brown hair, and several of them were undeniably non-white (probably Inuit or some other arctic people, in the case of the Water Tribe). But in anime in general, there would be no reason to complain about casting white actors in those roles unless there's an actual point made about their origins.
>> No. 379107
I think what most people overlook is that a lot of series don't take place on our planet, so nobody is really of any Earth ethnicity. There is a valid argument in picking white, Hollywood-attractive actors for every role in every film, though.
>> No. 379108
I don't want to derail the thread further, so I'll just say you're kinda right and kinda wrong.

>But in anime in general, there would be no reason to complain about casting white actors in those roles unless there's an actual point made about their origins.

In the case of anime/manga, I'd rather make Japanese the "default" race than encourage the "generic character = white" trend. If they're aliens or non-humans or it's REALLY difficult to tell because they seem like a "funny foreigner" character, I guess they're fair game for anyone. But that should be the exception rather than the rule.

>> No. 379109
*valid argument in the fact that every character in every movie is white and Hollywood-attractive, and there's never a chance for an alternative, I can see why people take offense to that
>> No. 379110
Why do women seem to get this vicarious thrill in the opposite sex so much more than men?
I hate to use the term "penis-envy."
I must be overlooking something. There must be other reasons, right?
>> No. 379117
As a female who likes looking at male/male smut, I just like pairing up two dudes because they're both hot and twice the sexy. I don't really care about actual shipping or their relationship outside of the actual porn.

I've never felt the desire to self-insert, so I don't understand the vicarious aspects of it. I've seen various analyses explaining that rather than actually inserting themselves into the yaoi as the uke or such, the uke character exhibits various traits that make them sympathetic to them in a nurturing/maternal way.
>> No. 379124
men don't want to put themselves in a woman's place. it's emasculating. they don't relate to feminine characters and don't really want to. they hardly ever have to either because the viewpoint character is usually a man, and if not, there's usually an important dude around who they can relate to. women, on the other hand, often kind of have to put themselves in a man's shoes because of this same deal, so they are kind of used to it.

so that's not penis envy. it's just applying feminine characteristics they can relate to onto male characters. a ton of f/f porn made by men & for men has a weird voyeuristic quality that i don't see nearly as often as m/m made by women & for women.

also a thing with yaoi is that there's usually one guy who is more or less a girl, just with a dick, who's usually the main character. they get the femininity they want in a viewpoint, and yet it is still two guys touching dicks, which is hot. best of both worlds.
>> No. 379126
>Why do women seem to get this vicarious thrill in the opposite sex so much more than men?
Men get the same exact thrill which is why lesbian porn is so popular among guys. We just don't talk about it because "hurr durr gay".

I'd love to experience female orgasms, play with boobies and breast milk as an impromptu supersoaker, but most guys aren't secure enough to say things like that in public.
>> No. 379127
Also the fact that women can make PEOPLE really fascinates me. Think of it, you can manufacture individuals, with their own future, personalities and so on.
Which is why I don't get some chicks being turned off by pregnancy.
>> No. 379128
Pain, fluids, responsibility, and the fact that when you have a baby there's about a 90% chance you'll take a dump in front of a stranger are all contributing factors.
>> No. 379129
Thanks for your input, and the understandable explanation. 

That makes sense too; I could see how a lot of men could have "womb envy."
I guess the thing that still puzzles me is the lesbians liking yaoi thing to a certain degree.

But anyway, thanks to everyone for responding to my idiotic questions.
>> No. 379130
> a 90% chance you'll take a dump in front of a stranger are all contributing factors.
Okay, you're going to have to explain this one to me.
>> No. 379131
Poop is in your tummy.
Babies, also, are in the tummy, and are quite large.
When you give birth, it puts a lot of pressure on your intestines, and unless you were given a very thorough cleaning-out first or unless you're having a c-section, odds are very high that you shit the bed.
It's actually good for the baby.

Childbirth ain't a pretty thing man, you think all those horrified faces the dad/kids make in sitcoms were without substance?
>> No. 379132
File 137023559822.jpg - (630.23KB , 1024x582 , All_the_Little_People_title_card.jpg )
It depends. I believe I know the sub-culture among them you're talking about, and as far as I can tell from conversations and correspondence on this subject, I'd say the biggest element for them is one of familiarity, predictability, and through that, a form of control.
Control and projecting what they want on somebody else, and feeling satisfaction when those two individuals, through the long and perhaps intangible leash of somebody elses control, do what the person holding the leashes want. It gives them a thrill that their expectations and desires are being met, it fulfills them by imagining they're in a "mother knows best" role, and it it affirms that what they want is how it should be. They don't really make the distinction between what they want and what is right, because to them, what they want *is* what they feel is right. No matter how selfish or projected. They feel what is right is what they feel.

For a straight example, look at Zuko and Katara. Can you imagine the mental backflips that were required to conclude not only was this "intended from the beginning" but it "was going to happen" before Mike and Bryan "changed things just to spite them"? Even years after, occasionally on /co/ somebody will comment about how Mike and Bryan and they are "agreeing to disagree" but "they know the truth." Which is shorthand for 'my opinion is as correct as the creators, but I have less power over them legally. I'm still right, I just can't make the truth change the narrative.'

This is the same solipsistic mentality that gave us the redefinition of Mary Sue. The original Mary Sue was a Star Trek fan character that fit as well in the setting as The Punisher or a similarly dark, broody and "super adult" original character showing up on an episode of Barney the Dinosaur. It meant the work of a fan that had no legal association with the canon or the main thing, was written poorly, non-canon in a way that characterized the weakness in a bad writer. And if you ask a Yaoi Fangirl in the fanfiction, art and creative writing culture today the definition of a Mary Sue, you'd get some convoluted definition that somehow applies to everybody elses original characters or fiction but leaves their own intact. A definition that they've used to turn Superman and any other protagonist their original characters can't beat into strangers in their own franchises. It's not because they're bad characters, it's because in the Yaoi Fangirl's world, those characters are seen as terrible in their little universe. Thus, they're 'Mary Sue' in their own respective worlds. This is the kind of mental gymnast and goalpost moving one needs to consider when asking what they feel attracts them to yaoi. Feels Make Reals.

They feel they know the characters, they feel gay males are less dangerous and more open to control than straight ones, and the double dip of being both more open to being dominated and less threatening to them makes them more entertaining to do what they want. Like tiny dogs with their teeth removed compared to rottweilers. Their dangerous threatening snarl becomes a "cute" and indignant puppy growl, easily handled and controlled. That's where the motherly angle comes in. They spin it as some sort of noble and compassionate interaction, when really all it is is patting themselves on the back for utilizing a form of force as a noble quality. Any force used is for their own good, or because they're too innocent and helpless to know or do better, and "mother knows best." And they see the gay males as passionate but clueless children they can impose their will on to do what they want. Not literal children, but juvenile minded subordinates under their control. Lesser men are subordinate and there's less danger in forcing your will on them, they reason. Whether they take a direct influence, or just rearrange the scenery so the right relationships between the right people happen "as nature(their will) intended", depends on how much responsibility they reason they would morally feel justified in taking.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's kind of a god complex. Sort of.
>> No. 379135
>odds are very high that you shit the bed.
A few things:
1) That makes complete sense
2) I refuse to google "birth pooping" to verify/learn more
3) My mother is a doula (a midwife of sorts) so I've learnt a lot about pregnancy from her teaching classes and whatnot, and this is the first time I've heard of this. Guess she doesn't cover it...
>> No. 379136
> you think all those horrified faces the dad/kids make in sitcoms were without substance?
I thought it was always just the "oh shit her vagina is huge/bleeding/there's an alien coming out of it" look.
>> No. 379138
Honestly pooping is probably one of the least gross things about giving birth.
>> No. 379139
So...I've just recently come to terms with the fact that I'm genderqueer. I always knew that I was—as far back as I can remember I've had this feeling that I was neither male nor female, even though I like my body and my urges just fine—but it's only in the last year or so that I've come to label it. I've always felt a sort of blankness; if I had to describe my gender in three words, it would be "characterized by absence." I like this part of me, though I am neither proud nor ashamed of it.

I'm going to fucking keep it to myself. No one who knows me will know about it.

You know why? Because if I feel like if I "come out," so to speak, I'll get people telling me "you can't know that" and "you're not QUEER ENOUGH" and "you're just saying this for the attention." WHAT ATTENTION? FROM WHO? I'm not jumping on the speshul snowflake oppression bandwagon. I don't want that. I want to be able to be open about what I am and how I feel. My genderlessness is just A Thing that's always been with me and I've never known how to discuss it. I guess I just shouldn't. Every time I put on a dress or makeup or some shit like that, (and I DO like doing that, don't get me wrong) I feel like I'm putting on a show: like I'm lying, somehow. At the same time, though, I feel like because I like my body and I like presenting as female that I'm not queer enough to be public about myself.

tl;dr no one gives a shit about demi-girls

On a more positive note, my guy is the sexiest. Fleshy, hairy dudes with heavy lidded eyes and hairy hands and "Romantic poet" hair are the best kind. One of my favorite things is when one of us makes the other beg for it. If there's anything sexier than someone shivering and saying, "please, I NEED you," then I don't know what it is.
>> No. 379140
>2) I refuse to google "birth pooping" to verify/learn more
No need. Here you go:

It's covered in #4.
>> No. 379141
In the same boat but with the other kind of junk.
I'm totally cool with having a dick, and that makes me feel like I'm not really genderless, so I kind of don't want to talk about it with people I'm close with.
It'd be cool if I could be more androgynous though. As it stands, I don't think I could pass as "pretty" at all, which is kind of a bummer, but oh well. I'll at least try when I'm not in a household with people who'd freak the fuck out if they caught me.
>One of my favorite things is when one of us makes the other beg for it. If there's anything sexier than someone shivering and saying, "please, I NEED you," then I don't know what it is.
>> No. 379143
Are you me (minus the fact that I'm single and only get to fantasize about fleshy, hairy guys who whisper "need me")?
>> No. 379146
you know what else is terrifying about pregnancy

miscarriages, still birth, ectopic pregnancy, placental abruption

thank fuck i live somewhere with free healthcare, i'll never forget when i was learning about the introduction of the NHS and how they had women queuing up with prolapsed uteri that they'd just been dealing with in their daily lives
>> No. 379147
Part of me doesn't want to have kids due to all the potential things that could happen to them.

I could plan a pregnancy and end up miscarrying. They could have birth defects. I could bring a kid into the world, only for them to be kidnapped, beaten up, raped, bullied, I could try my best and still be a shitty parent...it's terrifying.
>> No. 379150
To those who have defined themselves as genderqueer. Can you define it for me? Not a clinical or psychological definition; I mean the reason you think you are that way. I'm curious.

Because it's obvious to me that gender isn't a black-and-white thing. It's a scale that runs from what society calls feminine and what society calls masculine, and everyone is somewhere in between. So, in this case, mental gender doesn't even exist per se. It's all a matter of how society perceives your actions. A gay man, for instance, can act feminine; but that doesn't necessarily mean he feels he is the wrong gender, or a non-gender.

I'm curious because I naturally am put off by all labels. If asked what my gender is, I will say: "I'm a boy, obviously". When asked why I feel I am a male, I will say: "Because I have a penis, obviously..." But that is about as far as it goes. I don't give many fucks about what society thinks about my supposed gender-role. I don't wear women's clothes because they are uncomfortable (but the same goes for more traditional "men's clothes", that is: a suit and slacks), but I cry at movies, prefer cuddles to sex, and sometimes pee sitting down. Clothes, by the way, are very meaningless, here. Men used to wear hose and skirts, and pink used to be a boy color.

Anyway, it's just hard for me to wrap my head around how a person can believe they are the wrong gender for their physical sex when gender is poorly defined, determined by external factors, and always changing through history.
>> No. 379154
gender presentation and roles change, gender doesn't. gender is innate. you know whether you are a boy or girl before you learn what society expects of boys and girls.

we went through this last thread. go look over there.
>> No. 379160
File 137026002965.jpg - (28.43KB , 400x224 , image.jpg )
So why do fangirls seem to feel the need to do this so much more than fanboys?
Why are pairings like THIS so popular? Would the male equivalent be weird bronies shipping ponies together?
>> No. 379162
Because they like drama and contradiction is a source of conflict.
>> No. 379165
How do you leave your house every day if you're that scared of the world.
>> No. 379166
Because I just know. I didn't wake up one day and think, "Huh, I'm not a man OR a woman on the inside." I've just always been that way. I know it like I know I'm human.

Regarding the spectrum thing, I'm gonna copy something from a trans 101 I read once:
"In typical trans 101 discussions, right now I would probably be explaining to you that “gender is a spectrum” and drawing a cute little line graph labeled “m” at one end and “f” at the other. But this would be fallacious, as well as total bullshit. Gender is not a line, it is a huge three-dimensional space too big to be bounded by the concepts of “male” and “female.” Being trans is not always about falling “in between” binary genders, and as often as not, it’s about being something too expansive for those ideas to have meaning at all."

>I don't give many fucks about what society thinks about my supposed gender-role.
Well...if you're biologically male and you look it, it might because you don't HAVE to care. Trans people don't really have the luxury of not caring. Something like 1 in 12 trans people get murdered, which is an astonishingly high number. Quite a lot of people don't have the option of not caring. I don't mean to say that you're insensitive or anything like that. It's just something that merits consideration in a discussion of gender.

Clothing does matter, actually. Maybe it doesn't matter on a grand scale, but it matters very much to certain people as a means of showing identity. No one is the "wrong" gender, and it isn't really determined by external factors. Some people just don't have genders that traditionally correspond with their bodies. It's like, "Society tells me I should be X, but I know that I am Y."
>> No. 379167
>I've just always been that way
"Always" means "since you started thinking about it" which is usually well after the formative years of childhood.
>> No. 379168
...no. I mean I have felt this way as far back as I can remember. I didn't start "thinking about it" enough to give it a name until relatively recently, but it's always been there. Do you think much about your feet? Or your liver? Or any other part of yourself that's just kind of there?
>> No. 379172
So you knew about sex as a kid? Who taught you? That can fuck you up for life...
>> No. 379176
I don't. I don't often get permission to, my parents have gone on record to me, telling me never to trust anyone. I've had friends and significant others, but my parents' temper kinda drove them off. They complained that I had no friends, but when I had friends, they insisted they were all drug addicts or desperate to manipulate me, or needed someone to use as a vessel for sex, and didn't really like me.

In some respects, opposites do make a couple more interesting. Say one person is very straight-laced, and the other's a party animal. But their differences balance each other out. When done right, that is.

I have heard "gender" and "sex" defined as two different things. Sex being physical, and gender as how you feel. I don't think most people are textbook definitions of how "only masculine" or "only feminine" people should think. I don't think I've seen any "guy thing" that didn't have one female fan, or any "girl thing" that wasn't enjoyed by at least one guy. Genderifying pop culture has always been a thing I wish we could get rid of.
>> No. 379178
how would being taught about sex as a kid fuck you up for life

oh no, you'll have safe sex and know what goes were and what urban myths are bullshit? oh, the horror

unless you mean physical sex as in genitals, which makes your statement even more mystifying
>> No. 379180
No? I was a late bloomer in that respect? That has nothing to do with what I was talking about? My gender identity has no connection to who I want to fuck? Did YOU know about sex as a kid and somehow this informed your impression of yourself as a boy/girl/whatever?
>> No. 379181
Goddamn this thread is full of abused people. I feel so sorry for you guys, no one should have to go through BS like that.

You know you're not alone, there's free help and counselling available in every major city.
>> No. 379183
The thing you have to remember is that this subject isn't solidly grounded on either side yet. The science is still being worked on. So is the philosophy. And the handwaving. Don't stress over it too much, because the pro-side and the dissent side are still trying to evangelize their unconfirmed empirical evidence as the absolute truth.
>> No. 379187
The science seems to be in favour of a divide, though. It has come a long way in just a few years.

It makes logical sense that there's a part of the brain that controls for identity, that acts somewhat independently from the physical sex. We need to know coming into the world what we are. It's going to inform so much of your basic identity and how other people will see you and treat you. And you need to be ready for the onset of puberty. Toddlers understand the difference between boys and girls, and they know which one of those they are, and they often segregate into groups based on gender in large group environments like preschool (and discriminate against the other one). It is also evident in intersex conditions like 5-alpha-reductase deficiency (it's a DHT problem); kids with this condition look like girls when they are little because DHT is the hormone responsible for masculinisation before puberty, but they're actually male, and will go through normal male puberty once testosterone takes over. Moreover, they see themselves as male while they are still children despite usually beign raised as girls. You can't talk a child out of seeing themselves as a certain gender. Sex reassignment surgery on babies to fix ambiguous genitalia is currently being phased out because it's essentially a guessing game and the surgeon has a 50% chance (or less, if the baby will grow up to consider themselves genderless/a third sex) of reassigning a child to their correct gender.

There is really... quite a lot of evidence that gender's an innate brain thing that doesn't always match up with the appearance of the genitals. A more pressing question is why that occurs, especially in the case of people who are physically and genetically normal.

I'm never going to get a grant to be able to study this kind of thing though.
>> No. 379188
It could be societal. In terms of interests, we're told men like [x] and women like [y], and that if you like something different, you're weird, and people sometimes tend to try to shame it out of you. When really, all that matters is that people are putting their money in support of movies, video games, etc. that they're a fan of, consuming and sharing media that people worked hard to make.

I mean, I'm an artist, and if someone said "draw something for kids" I would avoid nudity and swearing and most violence, but I'm not going to draw anything tailor-made for one gender over the other. I'm female, and I grew up on Batman, TMNT, and Power Rangers. The whole boys-like-MLP thing isn't new to me, and I'm cool with it.

Agreed. Just do whatever feels best for you. A lot of it is opinion-based, there's no true "right" answer.

S'alright, man. I appreciate the support. I'm going to therapy, but it's kind of hard for my psychologist to do anything when my dad's stubborn, refuses to change, prefaces the abuse with "but I care about and love you", and is paying the bill for the psychologist in the first place.
>> No. 379190
I assume said psychologist knows about said abuse?
>> No. 379191
Yeah. Her response has been "just ignore him," because there's nothing I can do at this point to convince him otherwise. I've stood up to him and said "Hey, knock it off, I don't appreciate being treated like that," and his response is always to tease me or to just start laughing.

He has used the fact that I'm in therapy to convince people that I'm lying. I tried to tell the authorities once when he hit me, and he got the police to stop investigating because he said I'd been on anti-depressants at one point (years ago).
>> No. 379193
(I think we should start a new thread on defining gender. It's not the same thing as sex/sexual orientation and isn't even always correlated.)

As for what I think about it all, I'm just confused as hell. When I really, REALLY think about it, my concept of gender is just a black hole. I can't see it existing at all. What is the difference between a male and female, besides the physical and what society (of whatever level, even early ones) has imposed as a gender "role"? There isn't one. There is not one thing, unless I'm missing something rather big, here.

Transsexual is a COMPLETELY different issue. That would be someone who is altering their physical sex to match their perceived gender. It may or may not correlate with feeling a mismatch of "mental" gender (whatever that is). Where it gets me scratching my head is trying to distill away everything except this mental gender, and coming up with nothing.

Say we have a genetic male (XY). This person develops typically and is physically male (has a penis). This person doesn't mind staying with typical societal gender-roles regarding males, because this person likes boy-stuff. This person doesn't mind having a male body, either, because it's just a fleshy cocoon, and they like their penis. This person is sexually interested in females (is heterosexual).

But wait, this person feels that they should be the gender of a female (they are genderqueer). Does that make them really heterosexual, or some form of homosexual? More to the point: given their male genetics, male body, male societal actions, male-typical sexual orientation... exactly WHAT is the difference between this person and a typical all-around male? I don't see that anything is left.

Unless we're making genderqueer out to be the exact same thing as transsexual (just regarding thought/feeling and not necessarily action), in which case I ask: is there a difference between them? Why, then, the need for a different term?
>> No. 379198
What you ought to like, wear, and act is societal, yes. That changes drastically between cultures and over time. Those are gender roles and gender expression, which are obviously related to gender identity, but they are a means for you to tell other members of your group what your gender identity is, visually. To know which gender you are is certainly biological. It's not something your parents or friends teach you. If you're a girl, you have been a girl your entire life. If you were ever bullied or admonished for liking Boy Things over Girl Things, you probably did not question whether you were actually a boy because you liked Batman more than Barbie. That's not how it works. You can shame a child out of enjoying things but you cannot shame a child out of their gender identity, no more than you can shame birthmarks and blue eyes off somebody.

Shame is probably the reason why so many people think trans issues are just "regular teenage problems" though. Of course it starts to become more obvious as they grow up. A guy gaining independence from family that likely made it known that he was a daughter who ought to wear dresses to family gatherings and not a son like he used to say he was, when he was a small child, before he learned it wasn't ok to call yourself a boy.

I have heard the terms gynosexual (attracted to women) and androsexual (attracted to men) used in place of heterosexual or homosexual. I do like those because they disregard the gender of the person completely and place all genders on equal footing, but I can understand why they haven't caught on.

It does correlate with a mismatch of "mental gender" and physical sex. That's... that's the whole thing. If you feel at home with your physical sex you are not transgender. That misunderstanding is why in order to get hormones and surgeries you must go through many tests and months with a psychologist to make sure that the treatment will really benefit you. A lot of times it doesn't. Sometimes people are just unhappy with the role dealt to them and not their body. Hating being female doesn't mean you're actually male, or even genderqueer...

I'm not going to say a person like your hypothetical guy does not exist, but he would certainly be a rare individual, if they are masculine in all respects except for their female gender identity. People generally conform to the roles of their gender, at least somewhat, and want to express it and have people see them as a man/a woman. I suppose your character might be interested in like, being a drag queen, where he can live out being a woman for a while and make a show of it, without having to commit to being womanly full-time because he seems to prefer being masculine in day-to-day life.
>> No. 379199
>When I really, REALLY think about it, my concept of gender is just a black hole. I can't see it existing at all.

that's probably because you're cisgender

i've never felt gender dysphoria of the social or physical variety, so i too have to try and empathise with people who have experienced things differently to me. wow, what a radical concept. truly the diversity of humanity is astounding (this may come off as sarcastic but it really isn't)

>But wait, this person feels that they should be the gender of a female (they are genderqueer).

do you mean that they're a transwoman or non-binary make up your mind
>> No. 379208
What if people were telling you as a kid "If you like boy things, you aren't a girl, you're a boy" and you began questioning it that way? That doesn't mean you are transgender or even genderqueer (though you might rethink it later on in life), but I have seen (for example) middle school girls who were told by boys in their class that they "weren't enough of a girl to be a girl", that their breasts weren't big enough, or they acted too tomboyish.
>> No. 379210

That's all exactly my point. Your making "gender" out to be this invisible homunculus inside the mind that has no definition, the only perceivable effects of which are the expressions (clothes, preferences) that are defined by society.

My question is, WHAT is this "gender" inside the mind? Is it even there at all?

It's like saying that thunder and lightning are something that you can perceive. It's the "expression" of the clouds. Because we are human, we want all things to have meaning or purpose and some kind of genesis. Se we invent invisible gods who live in those clouds, which give rise to the "expression" through their function; they make the lightning. However, it is a fallacy because the clouds happen to make thunder and lightning without needing "something" inside them to produce it.

In my interpretation, expression of all things into reality, whether kinds of movies liked, clothes worn, etc., are merely an emergent property of a complex human mind. This is then slightly modified by societal pressures to conform to an artificial set of rules governing allowed behavior by certain sets of persons.

If all types of behaviors that are assigned to a gender "role" are socially based and not innate, then whether or not a person conforms to them depends not on whether or not this "god in the clouds" or "homunculus in the mind" matches their physical sex, but how much they care about what society wants them to do. One can be a physical woman who wants to not wear women's clothes and yet still "feel like a woman". Conversely, a man can wear those dresses and still "feel like a man". So, then, what are these "feelings"?

So the question still is: how do we define gender, purely innately in the mind? Without some kind of reasonable definition, just saying a person "feels like" their physical sex, or not, is meaningless. If they don't like their physical body, that is something else entirely. Plenty of people do not like their physical body for various reasons and thus modify it in various ways to better suit how they feel.

From what I see, it's all actions, which are related to conformity, not biology. There are many, MANY different roles society wants us to conform to that might be disagreeable, some which are related to physical sex, and some which are not.

(On the note of transsexuals, I fully support that any adult should be allowed to do anything they want to to their own bodies, so long as it doesn't cause harm to others. If a person wants to change to the other sex, let them. If they want to gouge out their eyes with a spoon, let them. If they want to get a tattoo, let them. If they want to commit suicide, let them. As long as they are not temporarily impaired by drugs or alcohol or a stressful life-event, it's fine. I don't think "Oh, you're permanently mentally retarded or psychologically abnormal," is any reason to prevent this. Humans should have free will to control their own selves.)

>that's probably because you're cisgender

I'm gay, so I don't see how I could be. I would also prefer to be a househusband and not have to do "work" — live like what a more traditional woman's role is. But that is probably just because I am very lazy and asocial. I don't necessarily think it's because I want to live in a woman's role. I don't put much stock in those sorts of things, like I said. I do get annoyed when my relatives want me to do certain things like men are supposed to, like screwing lots of chicks and getting a hardworking job and providing for my family, and being firm and dominant, etc. If I really think about it, I don't feel like either a man or a woman, I feel most like a child. Who knows (and who cares) what that would be called. Chronoqueer? I'll be the first to tell you that that's just laughable.
>> No. 379214
I don't understand. My point is that gender is innate and no one can tell you what you are and what you aren't in a way that will stick (although it may hurt--and it hurts precisely because you KNOW you aren't a guy and they're just saying it to be cruel).

"I don't want to be a girl"/"People don't see me as a girl" isn't the same thing as "I am not a girl." If bullying makes you realise that you aren't actually a clear-cut woman then... good for you?? I guess?? Sorry you had to find out that way??

It is literally a feeling. It is a thing you feel. Gender is an extremely basic concept tied to several different things. It is likely one of the first things a person understands about themselves. It is a part of that complex system. Social pressures will change its expression, but I do not believe at this time that it can change something as fundamental as gender identity.

Being gay doesn't make you not cisgender?????? What?????? Cis means you have never had to deal with gender dysphoria, i.e. you are not trans. The correct term for what you are is not "chronoqueer" either, you're looking for "manchild." :/
>> No. 379222
I always figured mental gender was like a map of your body inside your brain, and you know what belongs and what doesn't. For transsexuals, it's like that phantom limb syndrome thing, and there's some shit that doesn't belong, and you can't explain why, it just does! And so gender is like that, you know if you're a girl you should have girl parts, and if you're a boy you need boy parts, and if that's wrong it causes all kinds of problems, namely GENDER DYSPHORIA.

Gender presentation and gender roles are TOTALLY different things, which people seem to often confuse with regular old gender.
>> No. 379223
Yes. That is exactly what it is. It's really as simple as that.
>> No. 379224
So genderqueer and transsexual mean the exact same thing.

Why are people using the former term then? What's the point? There is literally nothing else to this other than a mismatch between physical sex and personal preference. That's something established; why confuse it?
>> No. 379230
Because transgender is binary (either you're mtf or ftm). Genderqueer is broader and encapsulates people who feel like they are both or neither. They can be physiologically normal people or people who were born intersex (although intersex people frequently adopt one gender instead of remaining between them). There are also people who experience gender dysphoria but not to a degree that they want to go through multiple surgeries to correct it, so they call themselves genderqueer instead of trans.

I do not know much about other genders, but there are a lot of third gender concepts in cultures across the world.

>> No. 379232
Why do so many people get upset when transgenderism is described as a clinical or medical condition? There's a lot of neurological data indicating that it stems from actual neurochemical differences, and free of context, if I was a transgendered person I would be relieved to find out that the reason for such feelings had a basis in biology as opposed to me just personally being crazy.
>> No. 379243
Because we have a legacy of handwaving legitimate things as being 'genetic problems.' We have a history of enacting terrible social policies, such as using X-Rays to whiten the skin of black people and get rid of the "black incongruence problem." We have a history of gay conversion therapy and shaming. We have a history of controlling the narrative, when legitimate and illegitimate, for our own points of view on the matter.

Here we have something that is quite literally a doubleheader. It's a philosophical position, that gender this nebulous red herring that says a robot can be male or female based on their self-perception or arbitrary cultural characteristics/mannerisms. It's a genetic position, and we aren't sure the exact source of what causes it. We aren't sure if it's a natural and harmless aberration, like homosexuality, or if it's something actually caused by pollution, or a malfunction in chromosomes that aid in the proper formation of the brain tissue that makes you feel at home and proper in your own skin. We just simply don't know yet.

In the meantime, the culture and community has seen fit to cultivate itself further and establish itself as a valid and legitimate thing in society, and even write the rules of its own perception for other people to follow. And anyone that doesn't can go stand over in the corner with the people grumbling about the sanctity of traditional marriage. That's why they spend so much time correcting people, at least according to their own definitions of what is and isn't gender, and what that ultimately means. And all of it is intended to give legitimacy to their own perspective on their existence, and what that ultimately means. The idea that transexuality may just be a malfunction that could be prevented or corrected may be absolutely horrifying to them, because it reduces the validity of 'transexual culture' to Body Integrity Identity Disorder. When you're trying to establish credibility that your way of thinking is correct, ethical and medically valid, this cannot stand. It undercuts everything you're trying to demonstrate is the progressive and logical truth.
>> No. 379244
I have met people who also expressed desire to have an operation that could make them both male and female at the same time, or to remove any sexual characteristics at all. But operations and chemicals to pull this off don't exist at this point.
>> No. 379245
File 137032456741.gif - (431.81KB , 461x246 , 1366420240730.gif )
>the science may fly in the face of the ethical considerations

I get not wanting a significant part of your life to be boiled down to "a disease", but that seems a little counter-productive. Understanding of this stuff is arguably what allows some people to lead a life where they don't feel dysphoric all the time.

That said, I've encountered a lot of technology where the ability far outweighs the ethical ramifications. It's not often said but it can be a poor idea to extend yourself to the bleeding edge of any science, as once there you really can change all the rules and rewrite the game, after a fashion.

Ah, thank you. I was curious about this myself, I didn't know whether there was a subset of people pursuing such notions.
>> No. 379246
A lot of the people I've seen arguing against it are transtrending crazies, so I guess they consider it threatening because it suggests that there's more to transexuality than just being in the mood for a pronoun. "Oh I usually identify as female but right now I feel like I'm in the mood to call myself a xhe/shi/xe, and if you accuse me of being flippant or insensitive then you're oppressing me because gender is 100% psychological!"

Obviously there are going to be some real transsexuals who have legitimate opposition to the idea, but the most common reason I've come across is plain old ignorance or Internet kiddies who don't actually understand what it truly means to be transsexual.
>> No. 379250
I'm a little wishy washy on the subject. I'm not wild about the cultural shift to try and adopt transexuality, if indeed it is caused by a congenital defect or a medical condition. Right now it's trying to entrench itself in society and make it a complete social taboo, punishable by decrying you on the same level as a bigot or a homophobe, unless you embrace every new position on the subject you're handed. I feel if we legitimately find it's a glitch of some sort, we should be able to say, "we can medicate and treat this" or "we can prevent this from happening" and not have it perceived as tanamount to saying you're trying to sterilize or convert every first born child of an oppressed minority.

There is no clean way to do this. And it gets dirtier the closer we get to the truth, and the longer we wait, the more entrenched the trans rights position gets in progressive minds. Both are correct. And this is contradictory.
>> No. 379252
Is it weird I've never considered what caused it, only that I can get why people feel this way, and that I'm okay with people transitioning?
>> No. 379253
I don't think it's too weird, no. It's not definitively weird or normal by quantifiable proof yet, so it's what you feel.
>> No. 379255
that's fine

Re: why people dislike transsexuality being a physiological issue, I have never personally met a transgender person who did not think of it as a medical condition. I think people who don't see it as a medical condition tend to view it in a more spiritual light and may see their situation as an identity in itself, something to be proud of and celebrated, while "truscum" just want their sex to match their gender and be done with it. It is a bit of a schism within the community about what to do when you have this condition, and both sides (but particularly non-truscum imo) talk down to the other about how they ought to feel and represent themselves, when there are probably many different reasons for and configurations of transsexuality and what applies to you may not apply to someone else.

I have also seen the argument that you must identify as trans rather than simply male or female because it is important to be seen and heard, but I think it is absurd to do this in a world where trans people who do not pass or are found out to be transgender are still faced with the real dangers of being beaten up, ostracised, raped or even killed for it. "Fuck the binary" is not always a safe way to go.

I don't quite understand transtrenders but I'm pretty sure they exist, too, and they don't want transsexuality to be medical because it means they won't be able to use the label.
>> No. 379263
What exactly does the term "truscum" refer to anyway? I've never paid close enough attention to the wackos using it to tell whether it specifically refers to people who want to quietly transition, transgenders who are insufficiently left-wing, transgenders who fall along the binary, or whatever.
>> No. 379265
It's all of those. It's a derogatory term some idiot made up to reference every transgender person who doesn't subscribe to the wishy-washy all-inclusive spiritual tumblr definition. I.e.: actual transgender people.
>> No. 379269
goddamn tumblr
>> No. 379271
Truscum is literally just a (usually trans) person who thinks being transsexual is a medical condition, and that you need gender dysphoria to be trans.

Which makes sense, I don't know why people treat them so awfully, especially those trans-with-asteriks*** people.
>> No. 379279
do you know what the asterisk in trans* is even supposed to represent? what other kind of trans is there? or does it just mean like... transgender plus a bunch of horrible bullshit like "transethnic"?
>> No. 379280
Truscum was created by thinkpol and pornosec for doubleplusgood prolefeed.
>> No. 379281
It's supposed to be like, all the stuff under the "trans" umbrella. Like transmasculine and genderqueers and crossdressers for some reason? Which doesn't really make sense to me. You're either transgender/transsexual, or you're not.
But those trans* types seem to think anyone who isn't a feminine female or masculine male would be some kind of "transgender".

But uh, this really has nothing to do with sex...
>> No. 379284
The original thread was "Sexuality and Fetishes", and that applies here. Whoever made this one just said "Sex Thread" (which should be avoided in future threads, I suppose). Trans/cis/bi/quack whatever is perfectly fine for the thread, since a lot of it deals with sexuality, though is not exclusive to that domain. (Personally, I think the focus is too much on semantics right now, but it's still a viable discussion.)
>> No. 379285
You know what's great? Dicks. Big, uncut, veiny dicks. Yeah.
>> No. 379287
File 137038816589.png - (403.79KB , 500x500 , sexy black girls judging you.png )
>> No. 379290
File 137039022362.jpg - (29.42KB , 366x440 , 87.jpg )
>implying uncut dicks aren't superior

One of the many reasons I'm glad I'm not an American.
>> No. 379291
So it's kind of the same shit as DIE CIS SCUM then?
>> No. 379292
I don't have an issue with cut dicks for religious reasons. Or a preference between cut and uncut. I just want someone with a penis. Preferably someone willing to wear a condom, because most of the guys I have gotten close with flat-out refused to wear them, and then wouldn't get why I wouldn't sleep with them. I'm not getting pregnant until I get married.

If I had to specify a type of dick, I actually prefer small ones. I find big ones really intimidating. I'm too small physically for that to be comfortable.
>> No. 379293
Well if you like small dicks, have I got an offer for you!
>> No. 379298
I never understood the cut vs. uncut thing. 'Course, penises don't interest me to begin with, so I've not looked into it.

When I was born, my dad wanted me to be circumcised while my mom didn't. My dad also wanted to name me one way, while my mom wanted to name me another (reversing the first and middle names). In the end they agreed to use the name my dad wanted if I remained "whole".

Not being circumcised can be annoying when you wake up and go to pee and the skin gets in the way. On the other hand, if you're circumcised you couldn't properly do the honor dance from Shin-chan, so it's a wash.
>> No. 379299
File 137039419891.jpg - (47.11KB , 261x400 , Laughing_elfman.jpg )
Uncut is delicious to suck, more meat to play with. Only issue is in anal sex, they have to wear a condom.

Cut is.... smooth enough, convenient even, but it feels unnatural.

>> No. 379300
>I just want someone with a penis.
This anon has the right idea.
>> No. 379303
I have seriously considered nicknaming my vagina "The Patriarchy" just so I can whisper "fuck the patriarchy" real sensually into my guy's ear before we get down and dirty.
>> No. 379304
8/10 amazing concept but falls short in execution.
>> No. 379305
File 137040862842.gif - (4.69KB , 212x389 , tumblr_ma9posUHK21qcdfmq.gif )
Open question: what's the weirdest/grossest/least sexy thing you've done or had done to you in a sexual situation?

My cutie patootie and I are both kind of strange. Often we try to creep each other out or otherwise kill the mood by doing or saying weird shit, because it's goddamn hilarious. At least once I've said "now this is podracing" in a falsetto while he was inside me. He has, on occasion, imitated Tommy Wiseau. The worst, however, was when I was on top and he was blindfolded. I took this opportunity to do a pretty solid Gollum imitation for a couple minutes. He was disgusted, but he never lost his erection.
>> No. 379306
I mean, we're both feminists, so I think it still works.
>> No. 379310
I don't know if I should find it adorable that you two are so playful with each other or disgusting that you would take your playfulness to such horrifying places.
>> No. 379312
I don't get cut vs uncut debates either considering it's not like it's anyone's fault if they're cut or not. I'm cut, only because my parents got told some bullshit about health benefits from being cut, the only one I can think of being no dickcheese, and that's not even a health risk really.
>> No. 379313
You can't try to apply rationale to points of attraction. A person generally won't be able to give you a real reason as to why they find something they find attractive, attractive. As Joe Dirt famously noted, "Might as well ask--why is a tree good? Why is the sunset good? Why are boobs good?"

It's not about a rational response to a quality about a person that reflects their relative worth as a person. It's about "Circumcised penises makes me moist," or "I can't get excited about anything but uncircumcised dongs." So don't try to understand the argument. Just understand that it matters to some people, and you're never going to be able to tell who until you actually see their reactions.
>> No. 379317
Would this apply to something like racial fetishes/repulsion?
In the previous thread it was more or less agreed upon that people who were only capable of finding certain races attractive/incapable of finding certain races attractive were at least somewhat guilty of some level of subconcious racism/having some racial hang-ups.
>> No. 379318
...I never thought a quote from that movie, of all things, would sum up things so well.

I have qualities I want in a partner, but they all have to do with personality, not looks. I don't favor any ethnicity over another. I guess I feel bad about that sometimes, because everyone knew what they wanted in a partner physically, and I just wanted to wake up next to someone. Maybe I felt if I was too broad, then I was being desperate.

I think I may have a tendency to prefer smaller dicks because of the worry that small female + well-endowed guy = a lot of pain on my end. I wouldn't date a guy just because he was smaller, though. Although I hate the whole size debate anyways. I hate when a guy starts bragging about it, and insists you give a damn when you really don't.
>> No. 379319
>insists you give a damn when you really don't

Ugh, this. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the male fetish for big dicks. Is there anything less attractive in the bedroom than a man obsessed with his own (and everyone else's) penis?
>> No. 379320
>I hate when a guy starts bragging about it, and insists you give a damn when you really don't.
Tell him you can buy a bigger one for $24.99, that ought to shut him up.
>> No. 379321
>It's not about a rational response to a quality about a person that reflects their relative worth as a person. It's about "Circumcised penises makes me moist," or "I can't get excited about anything but uncircumcised dongs." So don't try to understand the argument. Just understand that it matters to some people, and you're never going to be able to tell who until you actually see their reactions.

p.much. Although most people just can't live with the fact that most other people can not and will not ever find them attractive.
>> No. 379322

>I don't quite understand transtrenders but I'm pretty sure they exist, too, and they don't want transsexuality to be medical because it means they won't be able to use the label.

They're the result of an environment (tumblr) that places a cachet or street cred on queerness. It's a form of queerness they can claim without having to actually modify their behavior in any way. They get to feel special without experiencing the danger or dysphoria faced by a real trans person.

To be fair to them, most of them probably aren't doing it consciously. They're just dumb kids looking for an identity and latched onto something. They sure are annoying though.


You should be wearing a condom for anal anyway. Ew.
>> No. 379324
I'm happy that 'transtrenders' is recognized as an actual thing.
>> No. 379325
I'm extremely unhappy that it exists.

Fucking hipsters.
>> No. 379331
I can see that being a thing.
I knew someone guilty of this, who later overcame it and claimed some subconscious hang-ups were to blame.
>> No. 379332
There's nothing wrong with that kind of 'racism', they just like variety.
>> No. 379333
I think this is actually where the old thought about only dating someone your height comes from. Similar proportions mean that it's more likely that the size will be right for both his and her pleasure.
>> No. 379334
>they just like variety
You mean, they dislike variety, considering that refusing to date people of certain races limits choices rather than expanding them.
Unless I'm missing something here.
>> No. 379335
Who is more racist, people who date only within their own race or people who expand their horizons?
>> No. 379336
Whoa there, just because a person has a fetish for big titted girls doesn't mean they refuse to date small titted ones.

It's a fetish.
>> No. 379337
File 137046159167.gif?nsfw - (2.46MB , 275x193 , iczk9g3FHOuzj.gif?nsfw )
I'm just going to go ahead and salvage this thread before it gets any worse.
>> No. 379338
File 137046178532.jpg?nsfw - (137.33KB , 1024x768 , tumblr_mnlv8qtFjz1qzl081o1_1280.jpg?nsfw )
Why don't women just wear absurd nonsense anymore?
>> No. 379339
Sorry, I should have clarified; it was kinda in response to >>379317 and not fetishes in general, so it was more commenting on those people INCAPABLE of finding certain races attractive/finding only people of a certain race attractive. It wasn't my intention to imply that all people with fetishes were guilty of this.

The former? I believe that's what I implied.
Unless I'm missing something again.
>> No. 379340
File 137046204945.gif - (947.53KB , 256x238 , 1361692379826.gif )
Strong girls are the kawaiiest.
>> No. 379341
>Would this apply to something like racial fetishes/repulsion?
I would say it doesn't, but with a caveat--if you just happen to find the most common looks of a particular race more physically attractive or less physically attractive than another, there's really no getting around that. But if you were to see a person you find attractive, then later find out they're a different race than you thought--like say you see a beautiful mocha-skinned girl you assume is latina or something, then later discover she's black and just has light skin and lose all attraction to her because of it, that'd definitely be racist.

But I don't think simply finding traits that are common in a given race more or less attractive than others on its own is racist. For example, I like pale skinned brunettes, especially petite ones, and as such, I often find myself attracted to east asian women. But I don't go seeking asian women out specifically or anything--it's not about their race, it's just a look that I happen to find pretty.

I don't feel like the fact that a lot of them happen to have physical traits I find attractive makes me racist. I can see where if I were one of those "I only date asian women" guys, it would, though.
>> No. 379342
File 137046268115.gif?nsfw - (1.13MB , 320x240 , THhSc.gif?nsfw )
Shh, no attractive women allowed in these threads. Go back to posting overweight girls in Batman t-shirts and skinny 4'11" Jewish actresses.
>> No. 379343
File 137046283976.jpg?nsfw - (103.11KB , 431x682 , tumblr_mmnpiy9Wxs1s4kdfto1_500.jpg?nsfw )
fuck wrong pic
>> No. 379344
>fuck wrong pic

Also not 100% sure the other one isn't CP or at least JB.
>> No. 379345
File 137046428946.jpg?nsfw - (404.88KB , 1280x1280 , tumblr_ll2dkxW1cU1qa0zf5o1_1280.jpg?nsfw )
Google says she goes by "Chloe A". She works for Met-Art and is an adult.

You won't catch me slipping, no siree.
>> No. 379346
That's essentially what I was referring to.
Thanks for the input
Self-sage for being an unclear moron.
>> No. 379347
I never realised just how uncommon unshaved cooters are in porn/"erotic art" until I clicked this by accident.
>> No. 379348
Well you pay to see the goods, the action so to speak. Anything that obscures that is removed...
>> No. 379349
i like to think of it as natural decoration

of course, this is one area in which personal taste varies wildly

i have to be honest, the amount of people in porn with absolutely no junk hair (male and female performers) can get a little stifling sometimes
>> No. 379350
Ha. Ha. That describes exactly what I look like.
>> No. 379351
File 137046931955.jpg - (42.26KB , 500x667 , mikasabs.jpg )
sporty girls are my fetish
>> No. 379352
You're a 4'11 overweight Jewish actress who wears skinny Batman girl shirts?
>> No. 379354
RE pubic hair, I have a strong preference for pubes on myself and my partner. It seems like such a strange concept for some people these days, you say that and the default response is "what? you don't shave?". No, I hate the way it looks and feels. Leave me alone.
>> No. 379355
File 137047230684.jpg?spoiler - (131.50KB , 585x645 , penis_chart.jpg?spoiler )
>male obsession with penis size

It wouldn't be that way if everything in the world didn't support that notion that, yes, that is all women care about. "Studies", such as this one which resulted in the graph I posted, only add fuel to the fire. Seeing how 7.75-8 inches is at least a few standard deviations above average, that one picture makes probably 90% of men feel inadequate (mine is one of the blue squares at the very bottom-left corner). It's probably totally bullshit, but I've seen it thrown around everywhere as "proof".

Ironically, it seems that gay men actually care much less, on average, than straight women care about size (or so the men who are concerned about them THINK that they do).
>> No. 379357
Skinny 4'11 Jewish girl who wears Batman shirts. Wouldn't mind being heavier, but I guess it's not in my metabolism.
>> No. 379358
File 137047316433.jpg - (58.05KB , 402x500 , 127423362330.jpg )
>11 inch dick
>listed as mostly enjoyable

It's not "probably" bullshit, I can 800% guarantee it's bullshit. The rare female size queen aside, it's obviously made by someone who doesn't know that the average vagina is not a bottomless pit (and despite what their strange little animes tell them the cervix is not a second clit to be smashed like a button). It's prime trolling material.
>> No. 379361
Yeah. The feel of it is the worst thing, it's fine right after you do it but then you get the fucking stubble. Stubble is bad enough when it's on your legs and armpits but god damn it is so uncomfortable on the crotch area. I honestly don't care if everyone else in the world thinks pubic hair is disgusting, I am never doing that again.

Guys with treasure trails are also way cuter than guys who are basically hairless.
>> No. 379362
I only shave because my skin is super dry, and it itches if I don't shave.

I need to possibly go to a dermatologist.
>> No. 379363
File 137047464011.gif - (0.97MB , 320x240 , 1361857466424.gif )
I don't have any of those saved.
I also don't have any qts with pubic hair saved on this computer, I'll get back to you when I check my other one. I do have lots of strong girls saved, but most of them are pretty lewd, and I think the mods want lewdness kept to a minimum.
Good taste.
Good taste.
Shaved balls and ass are nice, but everything else in that area needs to be left alone.
>> No. 379366
That's interesting to know.
I'm a super-virgin who has read a good deal of erotic fiction written by women, and all of the idealized males in their stories happen to be hung like horses.
Is it to be assumed that these women are also super-virgins without adequate understanding of sex? Or maybe they coincidently all happen to be size-queens?
Or maybe both. Or maybe some psychological thing associated with size considering that it's fiction, and they're not actually on the receiving end of an avalanche of gargantuan cock.
Or something. I don't know.
>> No. 379367
I used to have nightmares over my size because my brother assured me anything above 8 inches is fine because girls need at least that much to feel the penis. Later I found out his dick is 5 inches and I spent my entire adolescence avoiding girls because of his stupid "brotherly advice".
We're still estranged.

Stubble on ball skin is incredibly painfu, the folds make sure that every movement of your skin forces sandpaper over the softest skin on a mans bodyl.
Basically this
>I am never doing that again.

Unless you have smooth ball skin, which would be weird, you'd have to botox it or something.

If this is internet fiction, it could be men pretending to be women writing stories for men.
More likely it's a fetish, like most straight men have fetishes for women with boobs that would cause them to pull a back muscle every time they jogged. Or like pedophiles thinking they can actually have sex with prepubescent girls (hint: their entire vagina is an inch deep, it develops in puberty t. dev bio textbook)
The asshole can actually take more dick length than a pussy.

Anatomy is anatomy.
>> No. 379368
>guess it's not in my metabolism
<insert insensitive WWII joke here>
>> No. 379369
I don't mind hair, but I hate jungles (the main reason I have so little Asian porn, despite yellow fever). If I ever actually expect to have sex, I'd take a trimmer down south, but I wouldn't shave it all off (especially not while I have fat legs, so it would chaff horribly), just make it nice and neat.

Of course, I also prefer short/tomboy/(sometimes)pixie top hair on women, so it probably makes sense that I like short pubic hair as well.
>> No. 379370
I don't have first-hand knowledge, but I have always assumed it's the psychological thing more than the writer speaking from experience, knowing what I do about the physiology of the vagina.

The vast majority if the nerves that feel pleasure in the vagina are less than two inches deep. The clitoris is the greatest concentration of those, and is much more likely to be stimulated from external pressure than internal--though some positions, like reverse cowgirl, make it easier to stimulate it from within. For internal stimulation, the g-spot is an option that can more easily be reached by larger men (though even then, it seems to only be about three inches in), but it hasn't even been proven that all women (or, in some studies, any women) have g-spots, and if they do its location may vary a bit from woman to woman.

Girth has a larger effect physically than length does, so a man of greater girth is more likely to give a woman more pleasure from vaginal sex than a longer man with a thin penis. But my impression is that even then, foreplay is more important.

I can see women being impressed by and excited by large penises regardless of how much of a difference it makes in the pleasure they feel from it. I've actually heard a lot of women who have been with guys with big dicks feel like guys with big dicks often never learn to be good lovers (as they assume their size alone is enough), in addition to sometimes being painful and not necessarily being any more likely to result in orgasm from penetration alone.

But, this is all generalities. Every individual is going to have her own preferences, and some may even enjoy things other women would find painful or uncomfortable. For example, despite its key role in orgasm, a lot of women don't like direct clitoral stimulation because their clitoris is so sensitive that direct stimulation hurts them, in which case stimulating the area around it would be more important.

Theoretical knowledge alone isn't enough to make you a good lover, but it can be helpful to know the physiology down there. I'm personally of the belief that manual dexterity, a clever tongue and a "can-do" attitude are the most important factors for a man to develop if he wants to be a good lover. And the ability to connect emotionally--many women's sexuality is largely tied in to emotion, even for short-term or one-off mates, so making a woman feel safe and good about herself and you is a key skill to making her enjoy her time with you, even if neither of you has any intention of falling in love with the other.
>> No. 379371
It's more the idea of big swinging dicks being really sexy and wonderful, kind of like a representation of desires and virility, rather than the massive schlongdong itself. I used to buy into the big dick thing myself when I was a virgin/inexperienced (young girls giggling behind their hands betting which teacher has a big fat cock sort of thing), but now I have had plenty of sex and a fair few sexual partners I know the reality.

Also man, fuck giving bjs to bigger dicks.
>> No. 379372
File 137047898192.jpg - (612.55KB , 1600x1200 , FertStatue3.jpg )
Would not be enjoyable in real life.
>> No. 379373
That makes sense.
>It's more the idea of big swinging dicks being really sexy and wonderful, kind of like a representation of desires and virility, rather than the massive schlongdong itself. I used to buy into the big dick thing myself when I was a virgin/inexperienced (young girls giggling behind their hands betting which teacher has a big fat cock sort of thing), but now I have had plenty of sex and a fair few sexual partners I know the reality.

Would it be fair to assume that the "male fetish for huge penises" is due in part to this?
>> No. 379374
You don't want to be heavier at that height, dude.
>> No. 379375
>> No. 379376
...This is why I never tell anyone I'm Jewish.
>> No. 379377

Dam I like me some neat bush.


Like those abs.


>the average vagina is not a bottomless pit



This is the cutest girl I've seen with arms that big. I like.
>> No. 379385
I've come across a number of fics written by both men and women in which the women have average or even small breasts, but have never come across any (save for a few humerous stories) in which the males are any less than very well-endowed.
While it does suggest that many men obsess over large genitalia, it seems to suggest the same for women, is all, and if it's a fetish, it's a very commonplace one, if not the most commonplace--for both men and women. In regards to fantasies.

So, while experience can make you wiser, there's still an element of glamour in regard to huge penises that excite a lot of women, basically?
And presumably, this could shape their preferences?
>> No. 379386
Haha it has to happen. I also get jokes about my ethnicity.

Just like men want to have huge cocks, I bet women want to have vagoos deep enough to take horsecocks. At least in fantasy.
>> No. 379387
i have never known anyone who even thought about how deep their vagina ought to go
>> No. 379388
What the hell is with her breasts? They look like they're implants or fake.
>> No. 379389
Hahahaha tiny vagina! So shallow!


Social presssurrreee!
>> No. 379390
I've read at least one fic where it was made very explicit that the guy had an average sized penis, and his partner adored him.

Besides that, how exactly did they tabulate that information on what dick sizes women prefer? Line up a bunch of naked dudes with boners? Please let it be that.
>> No. 379393
File 137049300768.jpg - (35.02KB , 500x378 , tumblr_mkn6qhcSo81r2g7mto1_500.jpg )
>Too long for A-tier penis

Whelp, time to fuck tall women.
>> No. 379394
File 137049302498.jpg?nsfw - (95.48KB , 408x347 , 1365567638502.jpg?nsfw )
Second this. I have been told outright by girls that dick size is like 90% a guy's worry, not a girls'. And a lot of the physical science seems to back that up. As a sign of virility, a big dick is great, but generally it means you have to be a little more careful not to hurt your partner.

Most people playing up size, especially on 4chan, are just preying on insecurities. For the majority of people, what they're packing will more than get the job done. And, of course big dicks appear a lot in fiction, but this is because it's a virility sign. Smut is more about the fantasy than the reality, and the people who write it kind of reflect that.
>> No. 379395
also average vaginal depth varies

>With arousal, the vagina lengthens rapidly, to an average of about 4 in.(10 cm), but can continue to lengthen in response to pressure. As the woman becomes fully aroused, the vagina tents (last ²⁄₃) expands in length and width, while the cervix retracts. The walls of the vagina are composed of soft elastic folds of mucous membrane which stretch or contract (with support from pelvic muscles) to the size of the inserted penis or other object

>> No. 379396
The silly 'I'm huge' thing comes from the idea that the less effort you have to take to hit all the nerves and buttons and light up a lady's tunnel like a christmas tree, the more satisfied they'll be. And by contrast, smaller dicks are less capable of that (so the theory goes) so unless you're REALLY REALLY SKILLED, she'll just lay there trying to hide a look of disappointment and "oh god I wish I never bothered with him, this is awkward and sad and what an inadequate, pathetic sadsack" on her face.

There's no way to immediately gauge how well a dummy can pump and grind and inspire their gal to sing "Oh, sweet mystery of life, at last I've found youu~♪", so they go the other direction and ask: Who has to expend the least amount of effort to hit all the tasty notes and make the most of their alleged skill? Even a dumb highschool jock that can barely manage in-and-out has an advantage, there. You can never be sure if the chick is being honest (allegedly) or gossiping about your inadequacy and ineptness behind your back. You can guesstimate how well the dudes do by the length and girth, though. That part can't be faked or fish storied, so long as they can be told to get naked and prove it.

There's also the misconception that larger men 'ruin' women for smaller, less endowed ones. The idea that once they've had and stretched around a bigger male, they'll just never be satisfied with anything beneath a certain threshold of size, and avoid sexual partners with dicks under above-average length and girth. Not unlike a girl used to dating upperclass men who just can't get excited for dates unless there's a minimum of $500 spent on the evening.

In short, grow up with a small dick or even average sized cock, feel like a special needs person in the world of sex.
>> No. 379397
I often wonder who the lucky bastards are that study this thing.

And if they are guys, how do they hide the erection.
>> No. 379400
>And if they are guys, how do they hide the erection.
Self control.
>> No. 379401
It's just not a thing I'm a fan of, that's all-- for the same reason I'm not a fan of Nazi fetishes in my personal bedroom. I'm one of those people still touchy about it.

Oglaf. There's one strip about a dude who's a centaur, and he saves a woman, who begs him to fuck her (her peoples' custom). He removes the legs, revealing he doesn't have a horsecock, but is rather on the small size, and she's relieved.

It's my virgin status that makes me averse to the idea of large cocks, honestly.
>> No. 379403
lol more like duct tape
>> No. 379405
File 137050482653.jpg?nsfw - (94.88KB , 1024x683 , demi-moore-hairy-bush.jpg?nsfw )
Oh yeah, here Moe.
Still not a 4'11" Jewish girl, sorry.
>> No. 379407
just so you know this isn't an image thread to post porn in without any relevant content in the text
>> No. 379409
See: >>379363
>but most of them are pretty lewd, and I think the mods want lewdness kept to a minimum.
I know. Out of my several posts in the two threads, that's my first NSFW contribution, I believe, for that specific reason.
Pretend it's attached to one of my earlier posts about how neat pubes are, if you want.
If I have a suitable NSFW image that I'm jonesing to post in the future, I will make sure to start up the computer it's on to attach it to the on-subject post. Sorry.
>> No. 379418
File 137051740380.gif - (533.19KB , 500x314 , 1366685947396.gif )
>Demi Moore

She got that CERN pussy.
Large Hardon Collider
>> No. 379419
Thank you for the enlightening information.

Regardless, as it's been somewhat established that it seems to be a pretty common fantasy, one that most males (or at least dorky ones like me) become somewhat conditioned to believe, is it feasible to say
>So, while experience can make you wiser, there's still an element of glamour in regard to huge penises that excite a lot of women, basically?
And that perhaps this contributes to the male insecurity/arrogance when it comes to size?
>> No. 379421
Well idk you seem pretty obsessed with it.
>> No. 379424
I'm normally not, but I'm interested in learning about certain social phenomena like this, and also want somewhat of a sense of consistency in regards to the "only men care about size" argument in order for it to be "rationally satisfying" to me.
So I guess you could say I'm becoming somewhat obsessed.
And that being the case, I'd like to learn more.
>> No. 379425
File 137051989364.png?nsfw - (657.26KB , 1280x1810 , tumblr_miptxkY69x1r33q09o1_1280.png?nsfw )
>preying on insecurities
Speaking of which, I once saw a nudit blog on tumblr where at least one dick in every picture was photoshopped to be bigger. The blogger also gives women bigger breasts when he can get away with it. They don't actually mention that they do this anywhere on the blog.


It's great. I wish I thought of it.
>> No. 379426
He also shoops the pubes out and gives everyone big identical vaginas.

Why is this blog kind of really creepy?
>> No. 379427
I has a question.

I am a self-loathing, low esteemed, 1.5 years to wizard level, anon. I think this may be caused by sexual frustration. In the past few weeks I've decided to lose my virginity to a call girl. Will finally getting over this cease my unhealthy obsession?
>> No. 379428
Isn't it illegal to take pics of nudists?
>> No. 379429
File 137052294727.gif?nsfw - (1.74MB , 500x375 , penis inspection day.gif?nsfw )

Deserves a stronger word than that.
>> No. 379430
>> No. 379431
File 13705253428.jpg?nsfw - (149.12KB , 600x835 , 1370525222693.jpg?nsfw )
Penis Inspection Day, only without middle schoolers.
>> No. 379432
Can you tie it in a knot?
Can you tie it in a bow?

>> No. 379436
Aw man, I love the old timey fake penises. Especially on their "hermaphrodite" movies, it looks like they superglued it on.

Special effects has certainly evolved...
>> No. 379437
File 137053704939.gif?nsfw - (950.96KB , 306x510 , 1370464502351.gif?nsfw )
What the most underrated part of the body, for men and women?
>> No. 379438
File 137053849243.jpg - (56.17KB , 409x520 , penile-homunculus.jpg )
Palms, face and lower jaw.

They contain as many nerve endings as sexual organs (although jaw has a different kind), but no one talks about them in fantasies.

Actually your palms have many sensory nerves compared to a penis.
>> No. 379440
>> No. 379442
They'll be the same. But chrome.
>> No. 379443
File 13705398049.jpg - (42.83KB , 600x250 , ghostsmars8.jpg )
>> No. 379446
Everything is chrome in the fu…youtube thumb

I can't see things changing much in the way of fetishes. There are already people who like robots in a sexual way so maybe it'll just become more mainstream (that is, if robots become more of a part of daily life).
>> No. 379447
So your answer is robutts.
>> No. 379448
File 137054570786.jpg - (73.01KB , 650x538 , women sexism.jpg )
In the future men are going to wear revealing clothes and women will rape them for it.
>> No. 379449
I feel extremely silly and a bit guilty for asking this, but I was wondering about the stereotypical gay... "speaking pattern?" "Dialect?"...

Growing up, I had a friend who always spoke in that kind of "valley girl" accent. He recieved a lot of ridicule for it and was called gay all the time due to this and other somewhat effeminate behavior, but always insisted he was straight, and I always believed him and stuck by him.
Anyway, he recently came out of the closet.
When we first met, he was far too young for this to be any kind of learned behavior. Is it something that develops subconsciously?
Should I even attribute it to homosexuality? Growing up in an area where I suffered a lot of racial insecurities, I'm no fan of stereotypes myself, and I've also had gay friends since then to whom these stereotypes have no application.
>> No. 379450
>Is it something that develops subconsciously?
Like 99% of your personality... yes.
>> No. 379451
> future
Будет ласковый дождьyoutube thumb
>> No. 379452
It's just a really feminine way of speaking. Most girls have the same quality to their speech but you don't notice because it's so normal.

I feel like to some extent it may be hormonal because guys with the feminine timbre are usually feminine in other ways too and they're like that from a pretty early age. I don't have anything to back up that claim though.
>> No. 379540
Some people are more stereotypically feminine than others, but it doesn't always line up with sexuality.

I think there are a lot of people of every sexuality who are stereotypically feminine, stereotypically masculine, and in the middle.
>> No. 379570
File 137070075330.jpg?nsfw - (58.40KB , 600x693 , 1370700745001.jpg?nsfw )
Can we post our own tits here?
>> No. 379575
File 137070497944.jpg?nsfw - (345.17KB , 1280x1686 , tumblr_mnugu4WHui1s7743go2_1280.jpg?nsfw )
How about sexy cosplay?
>> No. 379576
That actually doesn't suck. I like it when furries and cosplayers put actual effort in their costumes.
>> No. 379578
File 137070892337.jpg?nsfw - (83.83KB , 500x683 , tumblr_mk5gvt0QCr1s7743go1_500.jpg?nsfw )
Oh hey! That's my friend Brandon's work.

Have it's Venom counterpart.

More of this stuff is over here http://brandonmcgill.tumblr.com/

Now to tell him his stuff is seriously getting around the web.
>> No. 379585
Tell him he has a cute looking penis.
>> No. 379648
So we were discussing goo girls in a chat, and I apparently won the chat by saying the closest thing to that fetish irl would be fucking a mountain of Jell-O.
>> No. 379651
Inb4 documentary about people starting to do that
>> No. 379660
I dunno. If I was making something that resembled living goo, I'd consider adding some corn starch to the gelatin mix so as to let it resist pressure a bit better. Maybe some iron filings too, since then you could get it to follow a magnetic element around, which in the case of goo girl simulation would I'm guessing be some sort of magnetic condom? I don't know how safe/comfortable that second idea would be, though.
>> No. 379662
>iron filings
That'll feel good on your dick.
>> No. 380126
I got onto the conversation today with a family member over sexual harassment, after realizing that certain things that people had said to me in the past could be construed as such.

Things we decided fit as sexual harassment, or at least, were insulting and shouldn't be said:

>>"You will never give anyone an erection."
>>"[Celebrity] looks like you, if you were hot."
>>"My perfect girlfriend would be you, if you were stacked."
>>"If your belly is not perfectly flat, you must be pregnant."

I've heard these all at some point. And to be honest, when I was younger, I felt like I deserved it. There were classmates of mine that were claiming they were made violently ill by the sight of anyone remotely "ugly", or anyone that didn't look like a supermodel.
>> No. 380128
I don't think those really constitute sexual harassment except for maybe the third. It's sexual bullying since they're preying on your insecurities about your body/romantic life, but the term "sexual harassment" is generally reserved for people putting unwanted, unprompted moves on you or making sexual comments/gestures. A lot of people think it's ok to do this because it's "positive" and they are paying you a "compliment." If a guy tells you that your boobs look great for motorboating he thinks you should be flattered by it, because who doesn't want to be sexually desirable? Why WOULDN'T you want great boobs, and why wouldn't you want guys to notice them? What else are they there for, am I right?
>> No. 380144
>sexual bullying
That's interesting, I don't think I've come across this term much.
Always having been a shy, awkward guy, back in junior high some female classmates would do things like periodically fondle and grope me in front of the class for the sole purpose of humiliating me while making it clear that I wasn't desirable in any way.
In my mind I had always categorized this as a form of bullying, as at its core it seemed similar to other kinds of bullying I'd experienced.
>> No. 380149
>I don't think I've come across this term much.
he just made it up lol
>> No. 380151
File 13717514562.png - (72.49KB , 675x1074 , sexual bullying.png )
>Thank you for Playing
>> No. 380154
Although such behavior may be closer to bullying than what is typically thought of as harrassment, bullying of a sexual nature is still categorized as harrassment.

"Sexual harassment is bullying or coercion of a sexual nature, or the unwelcome or inappropriate promise of rewards in exchange for sexual favors."..."Harassment can include "sexual harassment" or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature."
>> No. 380328
>Always having been a shy, awkward guy, back in junior high some female classmates would do things like periodically fondle and grope me in front of the class for the sole purpose of humiliating me while making it clear that I wasn't desirable in any way.

That's one of the most fucked-up things I've ever heard in my life. You have my sympathy, and I hope you aren't still bothered by the memory. I don't know where you went to school, but where I did (even back in the more-permissive 90's) such behavior was a one-way ticket to a suspension and possibly expulsion.

Sadly, the stereotype of "no such thing as female on male rape", doesn't help matters. It's a terrible thing.
>> No. 380339
I know your feel. People used to tell me I should feel lucky if someone "took pity on me" and raped me. No one has any right to fuck up your sense of self-worth like that, and nobody has the right to touch anyone, sexually or otherwise, in a way they don't like, and then tell them they should feel "worthy" or "lucky" to be in an uncomfortable situation like that.

At least from what I've seen, those people who think they're so much more attractive than the people they're bullying, they usually aren't. I can't say whether they're actually having more sex than the people they're bullying, but people who go out of their way to brag, even to people who they know don't give a shit about their sex lives, they're most likely lying, insecure, and feel the need to be immature dicks to total strangers. I hate it, and it sucks.
>> No. 380340
>I should feel lucky if someone "took pity on me" and raped me.
Shit. This is why we can't have nice things.
>> No. 380346
File 137207948741.png - (193.49KB , 930x787 , 1372077768001.png )
this is why we dont discuss tumblr terms
>> No. 380352
Do BDSM relationships have to be romantic?
>> No. 380353

Dear God, I can’t take this seriously. Please tell me they don’t mean all of that shit.
>> No. 380354
you really think someone would do that
just go on the internet and tell lies
>> No. 380355

Of course!
>> No. 380357
Yes che did

>> No. 380358
Well, most of those terms are legit, it's the attitude that makes it ridiculous. Also I'm not really sure how one can be a postmodern.
>> No. 380365
File 137211905887.jpg - (15.18KB , 300x287 , klingon11.jpg )
ghot vam'e teh

je tlhIngan vi'choq bogh
>> No. 380366
This seems like the height of internet attention whoring.

Also, the whole thing can boil down to "otherkin mental bestiality".
>> No. 380367
99% of people on Tumblr don't say this stuff.
A huge subsection of Tumblr is consistently sarcastic, too.
>> No. 380368

also i stand by my old statement of don't reblog garbage if you don't want to see garbage on your dashboard
>> No. 380387
Agreed. Someone posts something you disagree with vehemently? Tumblr Savior it, or unfollow them. Although again, make sure they're not joking first, context is key here.

I think being transgender is a real thing. Genderqueer is a real thing, too (though I think this has to do more with what's expected of both genders, and feeling out of place because you don't follow what's expected of your gender). I hate when those things, those legit definitions are lumped in with bullshit like transethnic, otherkin, or my least favorite, fictionkin (although that may be because of my belief that no fan ever knows the series or the characters better than the creator.)

Although I can empathize with "transethnic" and otherkin. Sometimes I see caucasian people, or just humans in general do something stupid, and I wish I wasn't associated with them. But you can change your gender. You can't change ethnicity or species.
>> No. 380388

I want to talk about this.

What do you mean by BDSM relationship? You mean dom and sub beyond the bedroom or just people who like to be kinky? I'd like to switch between dom and sub, but I don't want someone bossing me around in day to day life. I think I'm getting kinda off topic here, but I just wanted to comment.
>> No. 380389
Of course. You can have BDSM (or any other kind of sex) without being romantic, you can do things that are kinky outside the bedroom, you can restrict it just to the bedroom, you can be a dom only, you can be a sub only, you can switch...

For me, I'd only want to do light hitting/being hit, and the most I'd do out is wear a collar. I've seen people talk about walking their subs naked on a leash, and humiliation/voyeurism's a turn-off for me, so that's a no-go. I'm also not into calling people "daddy" or "pet", or causing my partner to be bruised.
>> No. 380393
let's get real who doesn't want to be a cat that would be baller as fuck

romance is what you make of it

so, yes, if it's what you want

i personally find things like collaring ceremonies very romantic but i suppose it all depends on your personal taste
>> No. 380394
There are collaring ceremonies?
Tell me more?
>> No. 380403
>or any other kind of sex
Especially rape.

Very unromantic imo.
>> No. 380404
File 137217299970.jpg - (127.97KB , 500x326 , CatMan.jpg )
>But you can change your gender. You can't change ethnicity or species.

A bit off-topic; but why can't you? Changing ethnicity (or at least the public's perception of it) is simple. It would not be impossible to surgically alter one's facial structure and use medications to alter the skin color to look the same as a different ethnic group as your native one. You can't claim that this isn't the same as being transgender, because that doesn't change a person's genetics, either. Until medical science advances to the point where scientists can play with DNA as easily as a child plays with Lego's, these are always cosmetic rather than structural changes.

That said, a person who thus alters their face to merely look like an animal is doing the same kind of cosmetic changes as a transgender (or hypothetical trans-racial) person has done. Yes, they don't have any, say, cat DNA or cat bone structure, but a MtF woman doesn't have a woman's bone structure and isn't XX, either. Really, it's the same (very limited) changes going on.

In any case, I think it's stupid, too, but I don't judge people for doing whatever the heck they want to do with their bodies and/or lives. I don't understand why so many of you take such vocal offense to this, as if it's hurting anyone else, ESPECIALLY if you aren't even a member of either group in question. What kind of idiotic white-knight do you think you are? Do you think these people either WANT or NEED to be defended by you? Get your own life!

And if you want to claim that it hurts the "legitimacy" of "real" conditions like gender dysphoria, screw off. Everyone in the world belongs to one group or another (usually not by choice) that has negative stereotypes and stigmas attached due to the actions of members therein that are stupid. You said it yourself that you sometimes feel ashamed to be white because of the actions of white people. It's part of the risk of openly belonging to a group to accept that some people are going to think bad of you just for being in that group. If gender dysphoric people don't want to be looked down upon by others because they're in a category that most people think is attention-getting nonsense, they can just hide in their rooms and never be their true selves, like so many other people do. If they want to be courageous and stand up with other members of their group, they must accept the risks as well as the rewards of doing so. The best thing you can do for them is just stay out of their way and let them BE. They can sort out their problems; you sort out your own.
>> No. 380405
Ethnicity and gender would be easy because those are based on perceptions people have about you. Change those perceptions and you've succeeded.

Things like sex, biological race or species are based on actualities, not perceptions. To change sex you'd have to be able to produce gametes of the other type (sperm or eggs), to change biological race would require some finessing with gene therapy, and to change from our species into an already existing one is pretty damn impossible with any current technology. Although it might be possible to create a new species similar to humans with germ line gene therapy.

BTW what people term as "sex change operation" doesn't really change your sex as biologists view it, you still produce the same gametes you were born with. It should be called "gender change operation" and "transgender" people instead of transsexual, but no one seems to be too worried about specifics in the transgender community.

>> No. 380410
haha i don't think i could tell you any better than a quick trip to google could

it's pretty much what it says on the tin, making up a wedding-like ritual between a long term D/s couple-heck, if you're lucky you can do it surrounded by kink-friendly friends
>> No. 380411
> D/s
Single sided dice, how is that possible?

I suppose in non-euclidianl games it would work, they also have imaginary sided dice.

Never heard of single sided dice though.
>> No. 380417
...I'm not white-knighting anyone. White knighting is pretending to support someone to get them on your side, and I don't. I have nothing to gain or lose by supporting transgender people, I just think they deserve to be treated better.

I do know several of my transgender friends have complained about transethnic people, and it does get on my nerves when people claim to be ethnically Japanese and think Japan is a perfect country and it's not, and they're not, but that's it.
>> No. 380418
Because gender is hard-encoded into your brain. Ethnicity is not.
You can be born with a gender that doesn't match your body, you cannot be born with an ethnicity that doesn't.
>> No. 380421
"Transethnicity" and similar concepts are offensive to trans people because it's adopting their narrative for frivolous and occasionally somewhat racist purposes, and people who use those terms don't understand what it is to be transgender in the first place. Being transgender isn't "I just can't stand women so I want to be a man."

A lot of this otherkin shit is spiritual in nature. You'll usually hear that they believe they were Korean in a past life and therefore have a special spiritual connection to Korea and its people despite being pasty Nordic white and knowing jack shit about the country. Likewise otherkin believe they literally have the souls of animals and may be the reincarnation of an animal. Fictionkin believe other universes exist and that authors can subconsciously travel to these worlds and write stories about them, and that souls from those worlds can be duplicated or reincarnated into this world, or cross over on the astral plane. There's also super obvious elements of escapism; i.e. you hate being white so you wish you were Korean, or you think your life is boring so you wish to be Karkat Vantas, or you have problems interacting with fellow humans so you believe you must not be really human at all, at your core.

NONE of this is even close to being transgender. Otherkin etc want their borderline religious concepts to be accepted as similar to transgender in order for their stuff to be seen as more legitimate, because hey--a lot of people don't "believe" that gender dysphoria is real but that doesn't mean it isn't, because it's also a recognised psychological disorder and cis people just have a hard time understanding if they don't personally know anyone who is transgender. Also a lot of insults leveled at transgender people are also criticisms directed at otherkin. There's definite similarities in how transgender people and people who believe they are dragons are treated (mainly on the internet) but that doesn't mean the two things are actually related.
>> No. 380425
It reminds me about how for the longest time, homosexuality was linked in public discussion to pedophilia. Because the two frequented roughly the same circles, and many of the defenses of one could be roughly pasted onto the other, and that was convenient.

>Changing ethnicity (or at least the public's perception of it) is simple.
Yeah. It's the simplest thing in the world?

Used to be a Yugoslav? You're Serbian now.

Used to be Irish? You're Ulster Scotts now.Greeks and Turks, you. Switch places.

Ethnic identity is already so fluid that it's not a fucking condition to consider yourself a particular ethnicity.

>To change sex you'd have to be able to produce gametes of the other type (sperm or eggs)
You realize this definition means that loads of people are not any sex at all.
>> No. 380426
You mean hermaphrodites? They're like .001% of the population...
>> No. 380428
Intersex. Hermaphrodites are defined by two sets of fully functional sex organs in the same body, which just can't happen outside of hentai. Intersex is where, say, a person has an external vaginal pouch, but no breasts at all, a microphallus, and internal testes.
>> No. 380429
>BTW what people term as "sex change operation" doesn't really change your sex as biologists view it, you still produce the same gametes you were born with. It should be called "gender change operation" and "transgender" people instead of transsexual, but no one seems to be too worried about specifics in the transgender community.

Also that's actually not true. We differentiate between chromosomal sex and physical sex when we need to, because with some intersex conditions they don't match up. You can be an XY "female" for instance if your cells are insensitive to DHT. You will have testes, but they will be useless; for all intents and purposes you are a woman with a predisposition to gonadal cancer because testes aren't meant to stay in the abdomen.

Trans people also get this allowance because they are changing their physical sex. That is why it is a sex change operation. Chromosomes actually don't fucking matter, no one cares, nobody but someone running genetic tests on you will be able to tell that you have a Y chromosome when you look and act and identify like you have two Xs. It's irrelevant.

Gender also does not change; you can't change it. That's not how it works. Gender is a thing in your brain, it's how you feel about yourself. Gender is the reason why people undergo sex reassignment surgery.
>> No. 380430
Anyone who is sterile.
>> No. 380431
>because it's also a recognised psychological disorder

I wish people would stop that. The definitions in the DSM change every few years, especially regarding what is a disorder and what is not. Especially considering that, in order for any condition to be considered a "disorder", the person in question has to be adversely affected by it. There is no point diagnosing someone with avoidant personality disorder it they don't care that they are unable to form social attachment.

I don't put scientific definitions "above" ones that haven't been peer reviewed or even those on tumblr or wherever else on the internet. Scientists have a really bad habit of ignoring historical precedent and always saying: "WHAT WE KNOW NOW IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH! OBEY OUR AUTHORITY!", only to end up with their feet stuffed firmly in their mouths five years later when everything changes. Except everyone forgets about it later.

Does that mean that I put every theory on equal ground, even those of 12-year-olds and those with decades of research in that field? Of course not. But I don't automatically point to a document of my choice to bolster my arguments, because I recognize it is definitely all going to be proven "wrong" in the near future. I make up my own mind, because everything simply runs by the direction of whomever is in charge, usually those providing the payroll. Do you think what is put in official scientific material is what the scientists actually believe? Or is it just what they are paid to put in there, or otherwise politically pressured to? Does a bear shit in the forest? I'll bet those doctors who said that smoking is perfectly healthy might have gotten a little something extra in their payroll to ignore all those lung cancer cases to give the thumbs up.

Other than that, there is no difference. One is sanctioned by big-name scientists as a "real" disorder, and others are not. Remove that, and you have no argument. It's just money talking, like everything else. So these "conditions" are either all bullshit, or all real. You should choose for yourself which, possibly using your own brainpower and studies, instead of being a sheep.

(Every argument just devolves into semantics, anyway. Idiot humans and their idiotic labels. What is "gender", what is "sex", what is "race", what is "ethnicity", what is "straight", what is "gay". Forget the concepts, let's just argue about the brass tacks of the WORDS. Pathetic. Ridiculous. Asinine.)
>> No. 380433
I'll admit the quagmire of intersex people exists but it's still very rare and doesn't apply to what we talk about when we talk about the transgender community, so lets stay on the topic of people changing their gender here.

Someone who has a (say MtF) sex change operation has their testes removed and their entire gonadal region reshaped into a vagina. But that doesn't make them change sex, it makes them change the physical aspects of their gender.
>Gender also does not change; you can't change it. That's not how it works. Gender is a thing in your brain, it's how you feel about yourself.
Really? Because in my psych courses I was taught that the environment has a lot of impact on perceptions you have about yourself. The brain is very much asexual in terms of hormonal balance and structure until it hits puberty. Not to mention the physical aspects.

>Gender is a range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics distinguishing between masculinity and femininity

>In humans, biological sex is determined by five factors present at birth: the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia.

You can change some of these characteristics surgically later on in life, but your sex stays the same.
>> No. 380434
>There is no point diagnosing someone with avoidant personality disorder it they don't care that they are unable to form social attachment.
If they don't care, they're probably not suffering from avoidant personality disorder, they're probably just antisocial. Avoidant personality disorder is characterized by avoiding things that you actually do want to be doing in theory, but your anxieties or inferiority complexes or whatever make you psyche yourself out and make excuses until you end up not doing it. It's also one of the hardest things to diagnose because people with Avoidant Personality Disorder tend to talk themselves out of seeing therapists for reasons like "they could be seeing someone with real problems instead of my mopey neet bullshit."

Also, pretty much everything else you said is wrong, too. It's classic anti-intellectual bullshit that lacks any understanding of how science works. Scientists are the first group to recognize when they're wrong about something and fix it. Psychiatry is a soft science, so it's a good deal more fluid than something like physics, but peer review does elevate something above Tumblr nonsense. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way, but keep in mind that by saying so you have placed yourself in the same camp as Tom Cruise.
>> No. 380435
>Other than that, there is no difference. One is sanctioned by big-name scientists as a "real" disorder, and others are not. Remove that, and you have no argument.
It's also endorsed by big name wizards, so it literally can't be wrong.

>(Every argument just devolves into semantics, anyway. Idiot humans and their idiotic labels. What is "gender", what is "sex", what is "race", what is "ethnicity", what is "straight", what is "gay". Forget the concepts, let's just argue about the brass tacks of the WORDS. Pathetic. Ridiculous. Asinine.)
Man, for someone who complains about people taking big name authorities on face value, and how today's knowledge will be refuted tommorow, you're really big into a theory of linguistics that no one takes seriously anymore.
>> No. 380436
I'm not talking about Intersex people. I'm talking about any post-menopausal woman.

By your definition, they're not women.
>> No. 380437
I even highlighted it to you... did you bother to read...?
>at birth

And it's not my definition, it's what I was taught.
>> No. 380438
Well then no one is born a man, because no one is born able to produce sperm.
>> No. 380439
>the presence or absence of a Y chromosome, the type of gonads, the sex hormones, the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females), and the external genitalia.
Please, I beg you, finish reading a sentence.

Don't just read one word and finish. Although god knows you won't read this comment so I can say whatever I want and you won't notice. Michael Jackson was a shit singer and I don't think OJ did it. There was a second shooter on the grassy knoll.
>> No. 380440
So, you're switching the definition you're using from here:
>Things like sex, biological race or species are based on actualities, not perceptions. To change sex you'd have to be able to produce gametes of the other type (sperm or eggs)

So you've got a new definition, one that this time is totally grounded in biological reality at birth.

Of course, this means the biological reality of someones sex now depends on things that cannot be determined by empirical observation (the past).

Which of course means, Biological Sex is no longer a matter of science.
>> No. 380443
I really have to call into question your credentials as a Doctor, Dr. Goblin.
>> No. 380444
>produce gametes of the other type (sperm or eggs)
Yes, I'm sorry, that was the definition for other animals like fruit flies which are my specialty. My mistake, the human definition includes a few other factors.

Now stop being autistic.
>> No. 380445
File 137220450757.jpg - (17.58KB , 462x284 , tumblr_lwmlc22dTX1qi1ll7o1_500.jpg )
He has a doctorate in food science.
>> No. 380449
Well, since determining biological sex is a matter of studying the past, I've got most of a Master's down as well as professional experience.
>> No. 380453
Referring to it as "studying the past" seems such an awkward construction that it would almost have to come from someone who is being intentionally obtuse.
>> No. 380454
There are two types of people who go into psychology, and two sides to this debate. There are a lot of people in this field who just point blank refuse to admit that we are not born as blank slates. It's a very antiquated view but still has a lot of tract in some circles and that's kind of unfortunate. I went to school for biology and most of my psych professors also had backgrounds in biology & neuroscience too, and so there is really nothing from my viewpoint that supports tabula rasa. And as far as I can tell, none of the current research being done supports tabula rasa either.

I think we are afraid of admitting that genes play a large role in who we are mentally because of the eugenics movement and genetic determinism. We don't want to seem racist or sexist or support ideas that might be misused by racist or sexist groups, even if actual testing does support it. And some people take the notion of "equality" to mean that we must not see or acknowledge differences between people rather than to accept and respect that not everyone is exactly like you, which is nice in theory but just does not work in practice (and "well I don't see race" can be quite offensive). Psychology is a soft science that has great potential for abuse and it can be pretty hard to remain objective. Weenies who have only taken like one psych class four years ago also think they know shit because psychology is the study of human nature when they actually don't know any shit at all. There are a lot of things that slip under your radar because you just take them for granted and never need to think about them--gender identity and major depression being two things armchair psychologists think they know but never do.

Tabula rasa is a false notion because we must first have a set of rules and a sense of who we are in order to begin making sense the world around us. These are set up in the brain before birth. We are not taught how to learn, how to compare ourselves to other things, how to filter information, or how to have feelings. Those things are innate and they differ from person to person; they're essentially your personality. Because of adoption studies, we know that personality, to a degree, is genetically heritable. Heritability of a given trait depends on what it is, but generally the rates are actually pretty high in the twins-raised-apart studies. They are not just similar physically, but also mentally, even if they had never met before. The environment can change how these traits are portrayed to others, and a person can learn over time not to act a certain way, but the processes behind them are relatively stable and certainly rooted in how the brain was being wired in the womb and as a neonate.

How does that relate to gender?? One of the most basic things we have is our gender identity, which is not just necessary for navigating important social situations, but it also gives us understanding about how our bodies are set up and how they will change as we get older. We must have this set up soon after birth because the social aspects come in right away. And you're just completely fucking wrong about kids being asexual/agender until puberty and if you believe this then you are probably never around small children? You do not need to be a scientist, or even take psych 101, to know that kids have an understanding of whether they are a boy or a girl from a young age. Going further back to neonates, like babies who have been out of the womb for less than a day, there are small but reliable differences in how female and male infants act, which is actually pretty significant evidence against your assertion that male and female brains are the same until puberty.
>> No. 380456
File 137220975122.jpg - (258.97KB , 700x463 , proposal_by_cecilla-d3fv7yt.jpg )
I think I'm pretty acute.
>> No. 380457

>as far as I can tell, none of the current research being done supports tabula rasa either

Kkkkkkiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiind of.

The nature vs. nuture debate is great for getting people interested in the discussion, but the discussion itself is a lot more complex than that dichotomy would suggest. (I know you know better, but this is more for anyone reading the comments)

Certain features of organisms are inherent; that is, they are so because the organism was born with such genetic makeup. However, it's the environment the organism is exposed to that activates or suppresses this genetic makeup. Genes aren't like codes on a computer; they don't all activate all the time (again, I know you in particular know this but review whatever). Genes are proteins that only express under certain conditions, so even genes are subject to whatever is going on outside the organism.

There's no denying that what an organism is, is determined largely by what it is made of. The focus of the argument should be: how much of what an organism is, is because of the environment the organism lives (and has lived) in?

The past ~80 years of behavior analysis repeatedly demonstrates that all behavior studied other than reflexes (e.g., knee-jerk) and modal action patterns (e.g., mating rituals of certain birds) are learned behaviors. That is, the organism came into contact with an environment, at some point in their life, that made behaving in such a manner conducive to their access to things or states of being beneficial to the organism.

More or less: I can link you to like half a million research papers showing that anything and everything about getting boners to stuff is due to learning, not genetics. Yes, that includes boobs and threesomes. It's all learned. The data is conclusive and replicable.
>> No. 380460
I think it depends. There's some cases of boys showing interest in a dress, or a girl showing interest in male-oriented things, and their parents swiftly dismissing it as "not a thing we do". But I don't know if that's genetics, or gender rules.
>> No. 380464
sorry nevermind I'm going to go shave my head because hair is illogica later brosl
>> No. 380574
I think my lack of ability to gain weight (I'm underweight, and can't seem to be able to get bigger) has sort of manifested into an aesthetic fondness for plus-sized people. I'm not a "chubby chaser", I don't exclusively find plus-sized people sexy, and I'm not into inflation or force-feeding. But I do feel sad when someone who is, at least in my opinion, only minorly chubby, starts making plans to lose weight. Maybe it's not a fetish and more of a realization over how obsessed we are over our looks, and how I tend to find people most sexy when they're not intentionally trying to be sexy? Or something. I dunno.

What's wrong, Ninja?
>> No. 380580
Have you tried having pasta alfredo at every meal?
>> No. 380584
I don't consider myself as having a "fetish" for anything because I could never have the same meal constantly, or be only ever into one thing sexually.

At times that makes me feel bad, because I sort of envy those who find the one thing they could devote their entire life to, but either I don't have something like that, or I haven't found it yet.
>> No. 380585
Honestly, it gets kind of repetitive and boring having a fetish bro.
>> No. 380588
Especially if it's one that doesn't get catered to often.
Luckily my tastes are p diverse.
>> No. 380589
Really? I honestly thought I was a weirdo for not having one. It seems like a lot of the people I know have that one fetish, that one hobby, that one fandom they could get a tattoo of, that they could spend all their time with until the end of their life. I felt "undedicated", maybe, for lacking one.
>> No. 380590
Mine weren't, so I began to develop related fetishes to compensate, which has lead me to wonder how sexuality actually develops, and how much of it can change by development.
It seems to be taboo to suggest that it's anything but what you where born with, but it seems like we're missing out on a lot of interesting knowledge by simplifying it like that.
>> No. 380594
Well like a Fetish is different than a hobby. A hobby is something that engages your mind and your energies. A fetish is just something that gives you a boner, and it can be hard when that something is very specific.

There's only so many ways you can figure out how to work that into your sex life.
>> No. 380595
Oh yeah, there's definitely things you do in your life that determine your sexual development.
>> No. 380596
I did have one sort-of sexual fantasy I couldn't find an example of anywhere, now that you mention it. It was a size kink, a woman with glasses and a suit pegging a dude in a dress.
>> No. 381303
Is there a term for people who find sex repulsive for non-religious reasons? Parents who scold their 16+ kids for even thinking about sex because "it's icky and gross and you're a slut and you shouldn't know what the opposite sex looks like naked until you're married".
>> No. 381307
>> No. 381311

Sex is actually really gross. Cause human beings are kind of gross. Seriously, you're taking portions of the body that expel urine and blood in addition to semen and eggs and slapping them together for a while while you both sweat and heave and slobber all over each other. You can get diseases that cause large nasty bursting pustules. Oral sex is probably one of the most routine "non-reproductive" sexual acts that involves putting your mouth on a lot of that shit. I daresay if you don't come out the other end sweaty and a little stinky you've done it wrong. and if you do it right, totally worth it.

In all seriousness though, finding it gross is a little normal, frankly. I might say that culturally the concept of waiting until marriage is a little passe now, especially with the state of Marriage being what it is and the state of birth control as advanced as it is, if still somewhat restricted. In that instance I would say the parents in question really just want their child to be safe. Sex is dangerous, and being too freely amorous is likewise dangerous. But this is to say that on a scale of everything, there's a percentage chance you could die reading this right now. Putting yourself out there in any way, physically, emotionally, spiritually, artistically, and sexually, there is a always an element of risk involved. That risk can multiply exponentially with sexually transmitted diseases, particularly HIV.

That said, there are people who are well aware of the risks and negotiate them every night. There are some pretty graphic stories about what happens when sex goes wrong, but there's relatively few of them you hear where it goes perfectly fine and nothing bad really happens. There was a book written by an Administrative Assistant back in the 50's or early 60's, I want to say. Basically, it details her liaisons with her Boss. They were both young, otherwise unoccupied, and having some pretty good sex while not being married or even thinking about it. Eventually, he had to change locations and she decided to move on to bigger and better things (and a different company). Not really a break-up, just Fuck Buddies who couldn't be in the same area code anymore. It was really revealing at the time because there was a huge stigma about marriage outside of sex and how horrible and wrong it was and the big lesson of the whole book was that however disgusting it might seem, practiced safely and with someone you trust enough then the reality is that nothing bad really happens. I mean yeah, bad shit happens all the time but it's usually a case of not knowing whether to trust somebody or not. Marriage used to mean a lot more because courtship used to take a lot longer, be more meaningful, give you longer to know a person. Now it's often done very hastily, is often entered into more as an idea of "taking it to the next level", as opposed to going with the flow and simply being with the person, rather than trying to "officialize" your union. Some marriages still go strong; some I have heard directly described to me as real things that I would imagine teenagers doing and would never attribute to rational, thinking adults. The folks mean well but the times have changed.

That's really why I prefer to date and fuck outside of wedlock. It's a completely unpopular opinion voiced aloud, but the reality is it hardens and sharpens you to danger, makes you more knowledgeable about what you're doing, what kind of person you're interested in, and it really just makes you more socially aware and versatile.

This is a by-product of meeting and experiencing new people, not necessarily of the vice that brought you together. And while I think it's safe the same way I think smoking weed is relatively safe, this doesn't mean go out to your nearest park and hit up the shadiest looking jamiacian-wannabe you can find for a joint possibly laced with PCP or some shit. Remember, comfort and trust above all else. expect to get messy
>> No. 381315
Because basically, this is how my mom is in regards to me. She's religious, but religion has never once come into play when we discuss me even having a relationship, or me even knowing what sex is.

I was once sitting in my room, alone, without my shirt or bra on. I wasn't doing anything sexual. I was just really uncomfortably warm. My mom barged in and called me gross and a slut. She also tries to drive a wedge between me and anyone I potentially date, if I see anyone on a regular basis she starts thinking they're creepy and "just want your body, they don't really like you".

Thing is, I haven't gotten to the point of having sex with anyone, because I've had exes who were very touchy-feely, and if I said "I'm not comfortable with that yet" they got offended and refused to talk to me again.
>> No. 381322
>scold their 16+ kids for even thinking about sex

>dont like sex
>have sex
>make kid
>tell kid sex is bad


Or possibly they're just massively squicked out over the thought of their kids doing it with someone.
>> No. 381326
Well, likewise, I'm squicked by the thought of my mom having sex, but that doesn't mean I don't accept that it happened at some point.
>> No. 381327
>Marriage used to mean a lot more because courtship used to take a lot longer, be more meaningful, give you longer to know a person

This is untrue. Shotgun weddings and arranged loveless marriages which benefited the families and not the two actually getting married have existed forever. People getting married after being together for three weeks or less because they wanted to fuck and thought they'd be Together Forever at the time weren't that uncommon either. The reason why we perceive it differently nowadays isn't because marriage and courtship was more meaningful, it was because you couldn't get divorced if you started to hate your spouse. Women also frequently did not get much choice over who they would marry, and marriage in general was buried in so much social obligations that many people did not marry their spouse because they loved them, but for some other reason. I don't think a period in which you may be obligated to marry your rapist is a period in which marriage was "meaningful."

We are still adjusting to the idea that sex won't always make babies if you take precautions, and that a woman can--and ought to be able to--choose when she starts her family and with whom. Marriage today is an official, slightly optional ceremony that commemorates the love and commitment a couple already shares and gives them tax benefits. It is no longer explicitly religious and doesn't really bestow them the right to have sex for the first time because it's generally assumed they already did it. People fucked all the time out of wedlock for as long as marriage has been a thing but it just wasn't proper to say it because a woman had no value if she was neither a virgin or a wife.
>> No. 381328
> Shotgun weddings and arranged loveless marriages which benefited the families and not the two actually getting married have existed forever.
Unlikely, given that the whole concept of marriage other than for political purposes (i.e. arranged marriages) has only been around a couple of centuries. Before there was a middle class, marriage was pretty much exclusively for the nobility. Poor people just started living together and calling one another their spouses and that was that. So you could say they were Common Law marriages, I guess, in modern terms.
>> No. 381330
Ah yes, but you are forced to contemplate it, since you exist it must have happened. Parents on the other hand, would rather not think of their kids having sex.

Trust me on this, I have a niece and my brother can't even say "penis" in front of her without blushing. He's 39.

Parents are much happier when kids go behind their backs on this matter.
>> No. 381332
So what? Why do you think that invalidates the things I said? As long as marriage has existed as a concept people have been doing it for the wrong reasons. (The nobility are also still people even though they are rich.) It was not more meaningful in the past than it is now.
>> No. 381343
Fair enough. Whatever the requirements of marriage, there's some fairly significant historical evidence that extramarital sex has been occurring in one form or another with one type of partner or animal for pretty much as long as mankind has been around. The current generation is really strange because pornography is more ubiquitous as sex has become safer and the internet has made it kind of an open secret.

The older generations, who didn't really grow up with the net, they still keep to long courtship periods and general monogamy. Or at least, the ones who can't stand it say they do and walk off with anything that even wiggles in their direction. At least, this is the sentiment I've heard from some of the oldest people I've met.

But all of us? Hell, we've SEEN the damn porn. We've all seen significant amounts in our lifetimes, even if only fractional amounts like lemon fanfics, in addition to things like 2Girls1Cup, to just passing smut and general knowledge of weird hentai, to VNs, to Furries, etc.. There is almost more porn available now than the whole of human written history.

A lot of our folks, especially if you have traditional parents of any given faith, they're not really accustomed to that much sex at all. A lot of us have had the lid blown off this subject that had been heavily tabooed before now. And it's in a way that has given us really weird ideas about courtship and what it's supposed to be, but also really odd levels of acceptability for various sexual things that the current older generations lack.
>> No. 381348
I wish I could go behind her back on anything, but she's far too nosy.

I'm in my 20's, and she still hasn't figured out the concept of knocking before entering my room.
>> No. 381350
File 137356246736.jpg - (21.25KB , 280x250 , 40341_pro.jpg )
>I'm in my 20's, and she still hasn't figured out the concept of knocking before entering my room.
Have you figured out the concept of paying for food and lodging?
>> No. 381351

What a largely irrelevant post!
>> No. 381352
I'm in college, asshole. I'm devoting my full time to school because she's been pushing me to.

She's also been doing this since I was little.
>> No. 381356
>waaah waaahh, im a 20 year old baby
>> No. 381361
And you're an immature shit-for-brains who thinks coming in on someone when they're getting dressed and going "Gasp, you're naked! You're a slut!" is acceptable. I have no other problems with my mom other than her obsession with calling every woman other than herself a skank if they do anything she disapproves of. We get along perfectly otherwise.

And if you're enough of a fucking sheep to assume this is acceptable behavior, I don't know what to tell you.
>> No. 381362
Disregard, cancel this website.
>> No. 381363
If you expect everyone in life to act with "acceptable behavior" you're a naive little girl who won't go far in life.

Identify the problem:
- Mom walking in when she shouldn't, because she's perving or just massively impolite

Devise a solution:
- get a job, locate apartment near university, move out
- pay your mom lodging and tell her to fuck off unless she's invited in
- buy a doorknob with a lock ($9), learn to install it (30 mins on the web), do so (~10 minutes)
- put up a fucking sign to remind her
- DO something, anything!

Notice how "throw a tantrum and blame other people" is not on the list of solutions?
>> No. 381365
>responding to obvious dumbass trolls

The only troll to responded to here is moe.
>> No. 381367
File 137359857925.jpg - (17.18KB , 300x300 , 1283025608906.jpg )
Blame other people for their mom calling everyone a skank? That doesn't seem very reasonable at all. Nor is it unreasonable to expect a certain amount of privacy within your own living space, even if you aren't paying for it. And it is especially not unreasonable to expect that, if you want to sit around without a shirt in the privacy of your living space, that no one should be able to just barge in and insult you simply for sitting around with no shirt on.

Unfortunately it is unreasonable to expect the older generations to abide by any of that, especially if you're living in their house rent-free. They just don't conceive of these notions for their children, whom they think of as special and unique but also wholly under their thumbs. Changing the locks might not even be a viable option as they might just break the door down or call a locksmith. Some parents have absolutely no concept of personal space for their children until you make that space, and even then the parents may fight very hard against you making that space. Which I understand is difficult, cost of college, shithole economy, all that. Often the only real way is to legitimately move out.

It's frustrating but it's very hard to define a line between what is and isn't okay and then try to convince people who have never had a reason to change their convictions that it's alright. I know an Indian girl who married a Canadian guy and her mothers and her brothers and even just other Indian people in the community where she lived tried almost everything short of killing her to prevent that union from ever happening, and her family still rebels against it, even though she's living with the guy now. Nothing quite so disconcerting as walking into a random shop in the neighborhood on the arm of the guy you like and having some old Indian guy staring at you with eyes wide as dinner plates before going home and hearing about how you were "on the arm of that White Man at the laundromat". Our generation really perceives people and issues differently because we've really had to group up with a wider variety of people and things than any previous generation. It used to be who you knew was only ever really in your small town, and there was never a reason to change that. Nowadays we regularly get updates on all kinds of weird shit from all over the world, and we don't draw lines in the sand as much as our parents do because of that. We still have some issues, yeah, but often it's people who really restrict their worldview that have those issues.

Your mom just cares for you, even if she's crazy. Gettin' Busy might be a huge problem until you move out of the house, but honestly if your last couple of boyfriends have been a little more touchy than feely, it might be for the best. Sex is fun, but you should be reasonably safe and it sounds like those young gentlemen were chomping at the bit a tad overmuch.
>> No. 381368
Moe is my favorite troll because even his well thought-out and sensible posts are probably troll posts.
You can really never tell when he's being serious, or if he ever is, and that is why he is the best.
>> No. 381371

Agreed on all points. Intelligent trolling is a lost art on the internet these days. People just post some inflammatory shit or logical fallacies and call it a day.

Also, uh, I guess since this is the sex thread, I kinda want to try BDSM sometime, but I don't really want to do random hookups. I don't want to have sex with strangers for safety reasons, yet this isn't a topic that's easy to bring up with everyone.
>> No. 381373
whats this thread about
>> No. 381374

we social justice tumblr now
>> No. 381376
File 137362635126.jpg - (49.34KB , 640x480 , 1338085594203.jpg )
Complaining about slutshaming is pretty much on the same level as complaining about how being a virgin is nerdy. The reasons these biases exist are pretty deeply tied into our society's hetero-normative behavior, and are enabled in a million different ways (the ideas of predatory sexuality, chastity, lock/key courtship, etc). I don't think anyone should be judged harshly by how much or how little they fuck, but when people flaunt these silly petty biases in every area of their lives but act like Rosa Parks when someone judges them for sucking 37 dicks or spending their Fridays beating off to Little Witch Academia and crying, I can't help but roll my eyes at it.
>> No. 381380

>or womanchildren i think in this case
>> No. 381412
>Complaining about slutshaming is pretty much on the same level as complaining about how being a virgin is nerdy.
IDK if that's entirely the case? I know that virgin shaming is a thing and it stinks, but I've never heard it used as justification for sexual assault like slut shaming frequently is. Like, someone I have since cut ties with, uh, did A Bad Thing to his ex very much without her permission, and he deflected blame by claiming that it didn't matter because she had done it to herself before they were together and she was a SLUT. So...one of them is probably more harmful? Maybe. In my experience, at least.

sage b/c I have nothing sexy to contribute
>> No. 381419
File 137370415465.jpg - (82.18KB , 614x558 , STRONG FEMINIST ROLE MODEL.jpg )
The problem I have with the term "slut shaming" is 99% of the time it's not even used right, and the ones who DO use it properly are almost always on the position of defending the work or characters AGAINST accusations of misogyny, or supposed instances of slut shaming which really aren't. Quite ironic. The point of slut shaming is that just because a woman is wearing a revealing outfit doesn't mean she deserves to be treated worse or raped than a woman who's covered up. Slut shaming means it's not fair that women get saddled with such lopsided sexual double standards when men who are guilty of the same things can get away scot-free.

It does not mean that women should all be given absolute free license to have sex with anyone even if it hurts someone else, and that if a responsible boyfriend/husband is upset that she cheated on him for purely selfish reasons (and yes, women are capable of that, just as men are), he's being an oppressive misogynist. It does not mean that you must like female character designs which show a lot of skin even if they're ugly, flawed, or actually objectifying (I would argue that Bayonetta and Dragon's Dogma are not this, and thus cases where slut shaming can actually be a valid defense). It most certainly does not mean that female characters should be granted complete immunity to criticisms that don't even have anything to do with their sexuality in the first place. It most certainly does not fucking mean that women who are virgins, choose to be in a monogamous relationship, married, mothers to their own genetic children, or limit their sexual activity to emotional relationships are morons, slaves to the patriarchy, and inferior to more "sexually liberated" women.

As with things like "internalized misogyny" and other forms of "shaming", there was at some time a point buried deep down there somewhere in the depths, but with its abuse on sites like Tumblr/LJ/TVTropes/whatever the term has mutated to the point that its use now actually does far more harm for the feminist cause than good.
>> No. 381420
i've never seen it used the way you are describing it and i spend most of my internet time on those kinds of sites

either you are following particularly awful people or you're blowing it out of proportion
>> No. 381427
>slut shaming
lol this is a thing now?
>> No. 381433
>putting internalised misogyny in scare quotes

what are you tryin to push there fella
>> No. 381434
>scare quotes
The fuck are you smoking?
>> No. 381438
u wot m8
So, we are thinking of different things. Here is the definition as I understand it best, from wikipedia:
>Slut shaming...is a term associated with Feminist thinking defined as the act of making a woman feel guilty or inferior for engaging in certain sexual behaviors that deviate from traditional or orthodox gender expectations, or that which may be considered to be contrary to natural or supernatural/religious law.
That's all. I think there is definitely a conversation to be had about how this relates to fictional characters, but I'm more concerned with how it affects real people. Like, say, certain of my friends who have had their abuse dismissed or even mocked because of their sexual history. Also, I too spend most of my time on those sites and I've only seen that kind of shit when a bunch of other people have already pointed and laughed at the dumb person OR someone else has written out a lengthy rebuttal. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you really think a few idiots on tumblr have corrupted this term beyond use, then it might be more your problem than feminism's.
>> No. 381442
According to a lot of Internet Feminists who use the phrase "internalized misogyny", if you like doing things often regarded as masculine, you's clearly rejecting your vagina out of a hatred for all femininity. If you do like doing feminine things, you're blindly playing into the role set for you by evil men and therefore a brainwashed sheeple. Doesn't matter what you do or why, according to them you're obviously doing it out of hatred for your own sex, and not because you just happen to enjoy it.

Its actual meaning is plain old "don't be a female misogynist and maintain stereotypes"; feminine does not mean weak or bad, and is not worse or better than being masculine, despite what society may say. But I see it used in a lot of SJ circles it's often as a tactic to guilt trip other women into agreeing with you, and it's an extremely common attack method used even by people who aren't otherwise big into SJ to mock others they don't agree with or bash their shipping preferences by extending it to fictional characters, when it's mostly referring to social relations in real life.
>> No. 381446
Honestly this isn't really a problem for us or for feminism. You say "a lot" but you're seriously overexaggerating the amount of people who make this fuckup, and probably overestimating also how old they are.

Plus the main reason why women feel compelled to defend female characters no matter how objectively bad they are is because there just aren't that many to go around, and quasi-representation by bad characters is better than no representation at all. Female characters also have a disproportionate amount of hate lumped on them very often and it is very disheartening to come into a fandom and see that every character who shares your gender is being derided as a useless bitch. It is more or less up to female fans to portray those characters in a way that makes them fascinating in fanworks, because we sure as hell won't get it in canon.

As for men, there are a few who do the same thing for the same reason, and a lot more who just don't understand what is wrong with the designs in the first place (but they usually use... other arguments to defend their points, not feminist ones).

People will stop using "internalised misogyny" wrong in this circumstance whenever female characters don't habitually get pushed into the background with fapservice costumes. Because then there won't really be a need to hate or defend them from hate. Also when fans stop automatically thinking less of them because of their femininity, which, you know, actually happens.
>> No. 381479
>whenever female characters don't habitually get pushed into the background with fapservice costumes. Because then there won't really be a need to hate or defend them from hate. Also when fans stop automatically thinking less of them because of their femininity, which, you know, actually happens.
That will happen when female audience goes above 10%. People who make comics, TV shows and video games pander to an audience.

If your audience is angsty suburban teens trying to look hardcore, you give them GTA4 or COD. You do NOT give them a show with strong female roles, they're fucking teen boys, they drop a deuce when they try talking to a girl.
Conversely if your audience is young female girls, you don't give them product with exclusively male characters, because they just can't relate to it.

There are exceptions to this rule (bronies) but they are a statistically negligible as far as people making money are concerned.
>> No. 381483
It's already above 10%. It's a complete myth that women don't watch TV or play video games, and that men don't enjoy shows or games that star a woman. "Nuhhh well if girls actually PLAYED video games that are cool like OUR video games then we would be making games like that for them too" is horseshit. Girls have just grown up having to deal with stories always being told from the male perspective. We are used to it. We don't mind it at all, except for the fact that we hardly ever get the alternative.

If a girl can play The Last of Us and enjoy it--a lot of girls do--why wouldn't a guy be able enjoy the same story with the same story and characterisations if it had been about Jolene, a smuggler, and Eli, the boy she's tasked with escorting to a resistance camp who eventually becomes like a son to her? Where you play as Jolene?

People would buy that game for its sheer novelty. And if it is a novel idea in the game world that a woman can lead a story like this where there's no option to turn her into a male character (although if you could, it would still be her female face on the box), there's something fucking wrong here. Even moreso because you think this game wouldn't sell and no significant amount of men would like it. The wrongness doesn't come from the fact that Girls Don't Play Video Games.
>> No. 381484
File 137377991429.jpg - (390.64KB , 1600x1200 , gta_4_girl_1600x1200.jpg )
>It's a complete myth that women don't watch TV or play video games
Except nobody is saying that.

>and that men don't enjoy shows or games that star a woman
Oh sure, they do, but the way they're portrayed make feminists scream sexism! Pic related.

>Girls have just grown up having to deal with stories always being told from the male perspective.
Because again, most authors are men, and for about 7000 years of recorded history women didnt even read, so most of literature out there will be male-focused for the next few millenia even if we somehow manage to turn the entire world into a matriarchal society.

>The Last of Us
Is an example of a game that includes a broader audience, it has both sexes for gameplay. It has a female face on the box and allows you to play as the girl. It doesn't really fit into what you were talking about here >>381446
Have you played it? It's not exactly sexist.
>> No. 381486
>That will happen when female audience goes above 10%.

>Forty-five percent of all players are women. Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (31 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (19 percent).

You were saying? Also, this doesn't have to do with sex. Sage.
>> No. 381489
For a given game, it's called targeting an audience, learn to read.
>If your audience is angsty suburban teens trying to look hardcore, you give them GTA4 or COD. You do NOT give them a show with strong female roles, they're fucking teen boys, they drop a deuce when they try talking to a girl.
>Conversely if your audience is young female girls, you don't give them product with exclusively male characters, because they just can't relate to it.
The majority of game players are probably Chinese, that doesn't mean every game should be in mandarin by default.
Targeting. Businesses are obsessed with it, trust me.
>> No. 381490
You do realize that counts shit like mobile phone puzzle games moms play while waiting on their appointment right?
>> No. 381493
What? Korra did quite well with male viewers despite having a female star, and part of the whole appeal of the newest Tomb Raider was that the male players could identify directly as Lara Croft. While there are a lot of fratboys with that attitude, it's a bit of a disservice to the male sex to say that they're so pigheaded that it's inconceivable for them to relate to female characters.

And it's not true that young girls can't relate to male-heavy media. I often find the job of self-insertion easier with the male characters in a work than the women, because the smaller pool of female characters often play such passive roles in the work or are stereotypically feminine to the point that I can't find much in common with them.
>> No. 381494
>If your audience is angsty suburban teens trying to look hardcore, you give them GTA4 or COD. You do NOT give them a show with strong female roles, they're fucking teen boys, they drop a deuce when they try talking to a girl.
>> No. 381495
The problem I have with that statistic is it includes people who play shit like Bejeweled and Temple Run. I don't want to start a big "casual vs. hardcore" war but if it's not worthy of a /cog/ thread I wouldn't consider it actual gaming.
>> No. 381497
Agreed. It does make them a gamer, in that they play games, but not a "gamer". Saying someone is a "hardcore gamer" comes off fairly elitist, and it also often brings up the imagery of some 14yo in his room shouting profanity in the mic while he strings together 14 headshots in CoD. I try to say "core gamer", as in gaming is a moderate to large part of their life and done in variety, but that's still kind of elitist.

"Passionate gamer", perhaps?
>> No. 381500
Holy shit will you calm your ass down. First you say that there aren't enough women gamers so they don't get "targeted," but then somehow teenage guys—very much not a majority of the market—are important enough to get a billion brown lensflare stabby mcshooters. The issue is that this actually not enormous demographic gets targeted to the exclusion of others.

And what the fuck, "CASUAL" GAMES COUNT. Look. I'm a READER. A PASSIONATE reader, you might say. I have poetry by Aase Berg and a leather bound edition of Moby Dick and, for the love of all that is holy, I've read The Tale of Genji in its entirety. But I don't feel the need to distinguish myself from someone who only reads magazines or only reads thrillers or only reads fanfiction, because my head is only partially stuck up my ass, and I don't cultivate a laughable sense of superiority because I'm more involved in this pastime than some people.

>> No. 381501
>Except nobody is saying that.
My mistake, you said "women don't watch TV or play video games except for an insignificant 10%." Wow, what a change that is. Sorry for portraying you as a total idiot! Now your statement is about 20% more correct than it used to be, but hey, it's only 20%. That's pretty insignificant.

GTA4 does not have a female protagonist. GTA4's protagonist is Niko. Everything I know about this game I have gotten from osmosis, but I know for certain that character is not important to the plot. I had to dig around to find out who she was and it turns out she's not even present in the game, she's just in the promotional artwork. Why are you giving her as an example, of all things? She isn't the star of anything. She isn't even an actual character.

And no shit. I used The Last of Us as an example because it's better than most games on the market for this sort of thing, and it's a game both genders like. It's still a male main character though. You play a portion of the game as Ellie, and she has just as much stake in the plot as Joel (if not more), but you're Joel for most of it, and it's still a story about a broken man overcoming great loss and the girl he's got to protect. It's well-written but does not break any boundaries in gaming. Women play this game. A lot of them do. Men would play this game if the genders of the characters were reversed. Don't fucking tell me men wouldn't play a game as a woman for reasons other than sex appeal. That's insulting to both genders and just kind of flat-out wrong. They already do: it might have taken 3 games for female Shepard to get on the box art and her appearance had to be voted on by the fans, but there were straight guys playing as her from day one. Voluntarily.

There are stories that are totally buyable but companies won't pick them up because they believe women won't buy it because they don't play video games, and men won't buy it because they don't want games where they can't have their gender represented in the protagonist. Also there aren't many female creators, not because women don't create stuff that is good, but because the upper echelons are a boys only club at the moment.

Fun fact: a woman wrote what is mostly agreed upon to be the first novel in the 11th century. Many women in her social class did; it was kind of a girl's thing. So lmao @ "and for about 7000 years of recorded history women didnt even read."
>> No. 381504
Stuff like WiiSports is kind of iffy, but it's undeniable that a lot of the emerging female market in gaming is still at the Android/iPhone stage, and not high on the gaming industry's priorities. Doesn't mean a large number of females aren't interested in stuff like Xenoblade/GoW/Resident Evil/Civilization, or that they won't eventually graduate onto meatier stuff, but let's not use bring in an army of straw women to bolster our arguments either.
>> No. 381505
>> No. 381507
>> No. 381508
Every Ruruyoutube thumb
>> No. 381513
It's not immediately apparent what you're getting at, the targeted nature of advertising and designing for certain consumer groups, and how defining the target can in a way create the target, and leave everyone else stranded.

The problem I've always kind of had with the (lack of) female game protagonists is kind of the problem with the division of all media along the lines of gender. Within Literature there are works that are intrinsically feminine, entire sections of bookstores given over to dramatic literature geared solely at women (the rest defaults to "male" and then whatever the topic is).

My creative writing teacher once showed a meta-story about a young man and woman trying to work together to write a story. The young man kept talking about deep space fleet actions and the young woman kept talking about a young girl on a hot summer afternoon. The story was useless because it ended with them just ready to have sex tear each others' eyeballs out for not being able to collaborate with one another. But the frustrating thing to me is the conceptual notion that women only want to talk about feelings and emotions, and that men are only logical and brutish and concerned with war, and that there is no intersection between the two. If a woman were to act like a soldier, the perception is not that she believes in the necessity of defending peace or values her country or even that she is just goddamn-crazy-badass enough to do that, the perception is that she is unfeminine. She is not a human being making a rational decision, she is a woman making a bad choice given her standing in life. This is basically the same deal as a man being emotional. If a man has a relationship with a woman forced upon him that he does not enjoy or if he chooses to not do something for personal convictions or if he just wants to break down and cry for a few minutes because life is big and scary and he doesn't really fucking know either, that's unmanly.

The differences between the genders and the conflict of them in media is centuries old at this point. Man can never know the True Nature of Woman, said by some ancient dead guy who had a lot of sex, informs basically everything that has ever been said about men and women and love and romance. Which is fundamentally weird. In every other aspect of popular thought there is no divergent voice. Science is Science, Economics, Manufacturing; the language of Construction, of our understanding of the building blocks that make this world and that can be used to re-make this world is meant to be an inherently genderless, though it is largely written and influenced by the male perspective.

Pick up artists like to refer to their methods as using Game Theory, or the study of the individual actions, wants, needs, and perceptions within closed environments to determine various outcomes. If they were really using Game Theory, then Women would be considered Players, not pawns, and would be attributed their own wants and desires and Objectives. It is this lack of Objectivity that plagues women, this sense that they are not truly players and that when they are, they are innately not women. That somehow, being a part of the most important things that influence all our lives means that they are suddenly divested of voice, or at least divested of their voice.

This is the basis of the issue, imo. It gets a lot more difficult once the theory actually hits the reality.
>> No. 381524
>First you say that there aren't enough women gamers so they don't get "targeted,"
That's not what I'm saying.

> you said "women don't watch TV or play video games except for an insignificant 10%."
Actually I said the games you're criticizing are targeted to a different demographic, with only 10% being outliers, try not to read between the lines when you're illiterate.

How is it not apparent? He's calling shooters and other games sexist for not having more women, when women are obviously not the target audience. There are plenty of games that get marketed to women or for both sexes like some Final Fantasy sequels, Twilight Princess, Heavenly Sword, Mass Effect, pretty much every MMORPG, or almost exclusively for women like Heavy Rain.... Also quick games on social networks, but I won't get into that.

If he wants to complain about a lack of games targeting specifically women to the exclusion of men, sure, he can do that. But don't fucking take something targeting a specific audience and complain that it doesn't target another.

Or if he wants to talk about the stereotyping of women and men by businesses, that's fine too. But he needs to realize that businesses are there to make money and don't care about your feelings, for example insurance companies stereotype people with a family history of heart disease all the time. They aren't there to be politically/morally correct, video game industry exists to make money, and it just can't do that pandering to the minority minority as in the few people who step outside the masculine/feminine stereotype, not minorities as in "hurr durr women".
>> No. 381583
lmao but you didn't read nor understand the post you were originally responding to? >>381446 had nothing to do with the dumb shit you are spewing. It didn't say anything about the worst sexist games or games that are unabashedly meant for guys to get their jollies off.

Also did you notice that, barring Final Fantasy XIII, all the games you said were meant for women still have male protagonists? You could play as a woman in Mass Effect, but until Mass Effect 3, a female main character was not present anywhere on the promotional or box art. In Final Fantasy XII, Ashe was originally envisioned as the protagonist, but she was displaced by Vaan because having a female protagonist was deemed Too Risky. (XIII didn't do too well, but because of the inexplicable gameplay changes they made, not because the viewpoint character and the most important characters were all women.)

Even "neutral" games made with female players in mind hardly ever star women.
>> No. 381584
File 137383962557.jpg - (221.03KB , 700x502 , 4402106652_419964cc02_o.jpg )
>In Final Fantasy XII, Ashe was originally envisioned as the protagonist, but she was displaced by Vaan because having a female protagonist was deemed Too Risky.

They actually went back and forth between making the main character Basch and making it Ashe. The last Ivalice game with an older male character didn't do too well, so they settled for making the main character a sexualized teenage boy.

Just sayin'. I agree with most of your post, but Japanese games are a teenie bit more egalitarian in regards to marketing.
>> No. 381613
Also did you notice that, barring Final Fantasy XIII, all the games you said were meant for women still have male protagonists? You could play as a woman in Mass Effect, but until Mass Effect 3, a female main character was not present anywhere on the promotional or box art. In Final Fantasy XII, Ashe was originally envisioned as the protagonist, but she was displaced by Vaan because having a female protagonist was deemed Too Risky. (XIII didn't do too well, but because of the inexplicable gameplay changes they made, not because the viewpoint character and the most important characters were all women.)
It was her age and experience that made them back away from her, not her being a woman. Final Fantasy 6 had a female lead and it's quite popular.
>> No. 381614
She still would have made a better main character. When's the last time we've even had an emotionally stable queen main character attempting to revitalize her country by means of direct action?
>> No. 381617
She wasn't the MC, but Fire Emblem Awakening kind of had something like that.
>> No. 381619
Lenna and Faris in Final Fantasy V? And for that matter, Krile in the end. You could also point to Rosa in Final Fantasy IV the After Years.

If we're talking FE's, Elincia was pretty on the ball in the queening-through-direct action department.

Also, it's worth pointing out--Vash was the viewpoint character in Final Fantasy XII, not the lead character. Ashe was still the main character of that game in the same sense that Captain Ahab was the main character of Moby Dick or Gatsby was the main character of the Great Gatsby.
>> No. 381622
It's not really worth pointing out, because the issue at hand it that whether or not he is the most *important* character, the story is virtually always told from a male perspective. FFXII is another drop in a vary large lake. That is not to say that it, or any other game in that lake, are not good stories and do not treat their female characters well. But there is not much of alternative.

Moe is right in that Japanese games tend to be more fair, but the pattern exists there too, and "more diverse than North American games" is not exactly high praise.

I don't know anything about FF6, so I missed that, sorry. I'm not sure if you think it contradicts me or not, but it kind of reinforces my earlier point that it isn't actually that risky to have a female lead from a female viewpoint. Your male audience members will like it regardless of the gender of the main character if it's a good story with good gameplay (though I guess it can be argued that any old Final Fantasy have good gameplay by today's standards).
>> No. 381632
File 137389900623.jpg - (27.14KB , 430x300 , halo-3-master-chief.jpg )
>games meant for women still have male protagonists
Male protagonists in sexualized roles! It's fucking degrading seeing a guy without his shirt on, or with tight pants. Are we just pieces of meat to you, to be bought and sold?

Look at this picture, LOOK AT IT! They've distilled an entire person, a man, into a completely machine form built to fight and die for women. We don't even count as people anymore.

this is what girl gamers sound like when complaining about sex in games
>> No. 381643
Oh look, Mr. False Equivalence is here.
Pfft. If games catered to female sex fantasies, there would be fewer Bland White Stubbly Dudes and more Idris Elba lookalikes. Get back to me when there's an Idris Elba dating sim, or a game where the entire supporting cast is a dozen Idris Elbas in various states of undress.
>> No. 381644
>being a big titted blonde is a female fantasy, it has jack all to do with what i want in a woman

>implying white stubbly dudes dont make up 99.999999% of sexual fantasies

Consider this, have you ever seen fat ugly male protagonist? Every one of them is a muscly sculpted adonis. So it's kind of weird to see girl gamers complaining about there being too many hot girl characters in games.
>> No. 381648
come back when master chief and every character like him is actually sexy and then we'll talk. do you know how hard it is to find actually sexy pictures of master chief? it's hard. i would know.

but even when male protagonists are sexualised they are still the protagonists of their own games and aren't constantly displaced by female viewpoint characters :)
>> No. 381649
File 137391010013.jpg - (107.00KB , 588x600 , no_hugs_please-588x600.jpg )
>even when male protagonists are sexualised they are still the protagonists of their own games
Do you have any idea how many games have sexualized female protagonists?
>> No. 381650
no i don't! please name all of them for me, i'm sure you can

even better, how about games where they aren't sexualised
>> No. 381652
>how about games where they aren't sexualised
How bout you show me games where men aren't sexualized?

That's the whole point of this conversation.
>> No. 381653

do you not understand what sexualised means?????????? you had an example yourself. >>381632 do you think he is sexy?
>> No. 381654
File 137391207411.jpg - (218.40KB , 1125x1500 , Samus-Aran.jpg )
Do you think she is?
>> No. 381656
File 137391326261.png - (39.01KB , 170x344 , Zero_Suit_Samus_Other_M.png )
>> No. 381657
File 137391343567.png - (2.30KB , 180x232 , samus_at_the_end_of_metroid.png )
as a reward for beating the original metroid, samus aran stripped off her suit to reveal that she was a bikini-clad woman
>> No. 381658
File 137391419278.jpg - (275.04KB , 609x665 , 126086883242.jpg )
>Trying to find sexually explicit photos of the UNSC's most valuable, expensive and dangerous asset

>> No. 381660
I had to make them all myself. It wasn't fair.
>> No. 381661
File 137391469495.jpg - (80.24KB , 600x750 , cortana_motpost-s600x750-77497.jpg )
The true main character of the series.

117 is just her toy.
>> No. 381662
Um You really just kind of chose the worst male protag to make you point. Masterchief never shows any skin, is never seductive, is never playful, is never anything but a cold-blooded murder-borg. That may be tangentally sexy to a few but it is not directly meant to be sexual the way depicting Samus' armor exploding to reveal only a bikini or a skin-tight latex suit is. There's never anything like the Beautiful Beast Striptease scenes in MGS4, except focused on men.

Depicting overly muscled, buff men is a Male power fantasy, not a female sexual fantasy. The "male gaze" is almost never made into a "female gaze", generally because certain men feel uncomfortable with it for some reason.
>> No. 381663
>Depicting overly muscled, buff men is a Male power fantasy, not a female sexual fantasy.
So then depicting hot, big titted blondes is a Female attractiveness fantasy, not a male sexual fantasy. It's targeted to women gamers so they feel better about their bodies.
>> No. 381665
It shows how self-centered you are that you think serving your own sexual fantasies is something that women fantasize about. And it is why fixing this problem in video games and comics and things is so difficult--nerds are extraordinarily self-centered, and it makes explaining to them that other people's problems are actually problems very difficult.
>> No. 381670
>nerds are extraordinarily self-centered
I'd say "people are often extraordinarily self-centered". Personally, I'm generally not that interested in games that delve particularly hard into male power fantasy stuff compared to more whimsical or surreal titles, and in the latter case it's more a matter of game designers not even considering the idea that they are or aren't representing someone. Not really sure what I ought to do about this kind of thing other than continuing to refrain from buying the most braindead super-manly (Not to be confused with Superman-ly) titles available and keeping them in mind if I ever actually get past the difficulties I've had coding and just like make game.

Also: Kazooie. And I think Politwings 64's Ibis if you can consider an essentially plotless, dialog-free game as actual characters and not just humanoid game pieces. Hiromi Tengenji of Burning Force.
>> No. 381671
File 137392185385.jpg - (31.26KB , 250x175 , Superman64box.jpg )
>refrain from buying the most braindead super-manly (Not to be confused with Superman-ly) titles available
I dunno about that man...
>> No. 381672
Wait people think Idris Elba is sexy? I always thought he was a cool looking dude but never thought of him much as a sex symbol. I'd still play an Idris Elba dating sim for the hilarity though.
>> No. 381673
>Consider this, have you ever seen fat ugly male protagonist? Every one of them is a muscly sculpted adonis.
Can you not visualize a medium between the two? Besides, how many women do you know who are actually after "muscly sculpted adonis"?
>implying white stubbly dudes dont make up 99.999999% of sexual fantasies
oh you sweet summer child

>So then depicting hot, big titted blondes is a Female attractiveness fantasy, not a male sexual fantasy. It's targeted to women gamers so they feel better about their bodies.
are you really
how about no
I'm a woman. I have a lot of friends who are women of varying colors and shapes and sizes and what have you. Not a single one of us wants to look like that. My "attractiveness fantasy" involves me looking like ME, only in super-rad cyberpunk clothing and flawless makeup of my own choosing with immaculate winged eyeliner.

You know what, let's bring this back to sex. Here's my fantasy of an awesome sexy game tailored to me in particular. A female protagonist who looks like me: small breasted, pear shaped, doesn't exactly exude sex appeal. Now put her in really practical armor such that no unnecessary skin is showing. Think Brienne of Tarth for that. If you're gonna be fighting a lot of mooks, you don't want your boobs moving around a lot. That shit HURTS.
The player character gets a lot of shit done. Her armor never comes off. Why would it? She fights a lot of monsters and takes in a lot of loot. Sometimes she collaborates with other lady warriors—also practically armored—to fight unusually large beasts. All the men she encounters are either simple farmers in tight pants and loose, easily removed "poet" shirts, or Dothraki-ish warrior dudes in fancy loin cloths and nothing else. They all have nice butts and visible chest hair. Sometimes you can see a dick bulge, but not always. None of them look like body builders. Many of them look like Tim Heidecker; many of them are pleasantly chubby, like overstuffed pastries. The rest of them look like Idris Elba, Mads Mikkelsen, David Bowie, Cillian Murphy, Adrien Brody, and so on. There isn't a romance option. The player character is too busy killing monsters anyway, and looking at the eye candy is nice enough.
>> No. 381674
File 137392305189.png?spoiler - (407.61KB , 640x480 , 1337950274505.png?spoiler )
>> No. 381676
Reading this thread is like having your brain smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large book that is nothing but 500 pages repeating "double standard double standard double standard double standard double standard".

And for all you men and women complaining that there are no video game protagonists that exactly fit your body type or whatever? Piss off. At least you have something. There are no homosexual protagonists anywhere. The best I can do is find one with an asexual protagonist and squint really hard whenever he interacts with other men.

Your problems are largely inconsequential.

And before you go out and say it, I will: MY problems are largely inconsequential. Somewhere, there is probably a profoundly crippled person wondering why there isn't a video game with a similarly-stated protagonist for him to identify with.
>> No. 381677
File 13739243047.jpg - (49.84KB , 490x729 , idris-elba-shirtless-1.jpg )
*heavy breathing*
>> No. 381678
Wild Arms 2 has Brad Evans (got censored in the English, naturally, but you can still tell). It's criminally underrated by the way.
>> No. 381679
>A female protagonist who looks like me: small breasted, pear shaped, doesn't exactly exude sex appeal.
For the record, small-breasted, pear-shaped ladies who would more often be described as "cute" than "hot" are exactly my type.

>> No. 381680
>I'd say "people are often extraordinarily self-centered".
While to a certain extent that's accurate, it is not precise. Nerds are much more self-centered than average, because they live so much in their own heads. A big part of social awkwardness comes from how nerds are convinced that everyone is judging them and thinking about how fucked up their behaving, and generalized paranoia that when other people are laughing about something, they're probably laughing about them. Even nerds who hate themselves have this inner belief that they are the center of the universe, and everyone gives a shit about them, even if it's only because everyone hates them. The idea that most people just nothing them is alien.

Normal people definitely think about themselves a lot, but having a fairly advanced social network trains a person to be more aware of the fact that other people's problems actually matter. Selfish people with better socialization still might not give a shit, but they are actively aware that they don't give a shit. Like a well-socialized man who is sexist will just straight up be fine with being a sexist and being a sexist, because he doesn't give a shit about whether or not you think he's a sexist.

Nerds often don't give a shit and don't realize that they don't give a shit, because they live so much inside their own head that it impacts their ability to show empathy for others. When someone says "I am hurting" and your first reaction is "But I didn't do anything!" instead of "That sucks" or "Want a hug?" or something, chances are you're too self centered.
>> No. 381681
Do you have any idea how self centered THIS sounds?
>overly muscled, buff men is a Male power fantasy, not a female sexual fantasy
How can you be offended at what I say, when it is exactly the kind of thing you're saying to me?

For that matter, how dare you tell me what I like, what my "own sexual fantasies" are. I like small boobs on girls. I like brunettes. I like brown skinned girls. I don't fucking like bimbos. Fuck off.

>Reading this thread is like having your brain smashed out by a slice of lemon wrapped around a large book that is nothing but 500 pages repeating "double standard double standard double standard double standard double standard".
Yeah I just can't... I can't figure out how these peoples heads don't explode from all the hypocrisy.
>> No. 381683
Hoo boy, in before "slut shaming".
>> No. 381688
do you really not get the concept of
>sexualized women in video games are what the average man wants to see
>Buff McLargehuge is what the average man wants to play as
Women's fantasies aren't even considered when it comes to designing the women, because what women want to see isn't considered period aside from occasional fanservice, which turbonerds get all flustered about as well (see: Free!)
is that really a concept you can't comprehend
are you so thick-skulled
or am i just being lol baited! xD
>> No. 381689
This wasn't about sexual things at all until some dumbass came in and tried to make it about objectification and how hot he believes Master Chief to be. I don't actually care about sexualisation that much except that it usually leads to shitty/baffling character design. I'm certainly not complaining about characters not having my exact body type.

Your issues aren't inconsequential and I don't know why you think framing them in such a way should show me why I should not care about the things I do? The industry is still shit scared of having a female protagonist, which isn't even a real risk factor because guys will play games about girls too if given the chance; there's not much of a chance of having homosexual main characters ever if we can't even jump the female protag hurdle. Because that is a legit risk. See: the controversy surrounding Dragon Age 2 & homophobic dudes boycotting it because Anders makes a pass at the MC regardless of gender, while every other game allows them to skip whatever disgusting sodomite content there might be. The community can't even deal with one stray gay line, nevermind a main character who is openly gay. They also wanted to include a trans character in Dragon Age 2 but they didn't want the inevitable horrible backlash so they stuck her in the side comics instead. Lesbians are more okay to have than a gay man--as long as they're setpieces or not real lesbians because they're a monogendered alien race.

You want representation? First you've got to show that 50% of the population of earth have stories people want to hear about. Or just, like, some sort of thing that sets the protagonist apart from every other brown-haired close-shaven straight white male protagonist in AAA games is not going to hurt sales. Then you'll come into the picture. Telling people to piss off because you have less of a chance at the moment doesn't do you any favours, dude.
>> No. 381691
And before anyone accuses me of trying to disparage the validity of the term (it's a real thing and unfortunate), I'm just saying this as a precaution to anybody assuming it's being used as an attack on female sexuality as opposed to just a coarse description of a voluptuous female body type (which appears to be the case here), as is wont to happen in SJW circles.
>> No. 381692
File 137392880566.jpg - (271.49KB , 1280x853 , lookathimgoddammit.jpg )
You sure are mad. Here, look at this picture and feel better.
>> No. 381694
File 137392900787.jpg - (116.33KB , 720x709 , tumblr_mjtqavnq6Z1rsk4evo1_1280.jpg )
>guess what I'm doing with my hands
>> No. 381695
File 137392918987.jpg - (55.03KB , 435x580 , tumblr_mjtqh3SOGk1rsk4evo1_500.jpg )
>What's my next assignment, M?
>> No. 381696
File 137392925697.jpg - (305.06KB , 1280x856 , tumblr_mjtqckAa6T1rsk4evo1_1280.jpg )
>All right. You caught me. I have a boner.
>> No. 381697
File 137392925822.jpg - (216.87KB , 800x534 , idris-elba.jpg )
don't derail this thread even more than it already has thanks to the troll

not that he's a real troll because i think he'd only be looking for reactions in this circumstance if, somewhere deep down inside, actually believed the dumb shit he is barfing out everywhere

i'm going to go with idris elba anon and just post pictures of idris elba from now on when i don't have much to say
>> No. 381698
I think what really kicked this off (and I think there is some validity to it, despite the backlash) is that after excluding crap like Farmville and Angry Birds from the equation, women are still the minority in the video game market and a lot of them are more into the type of games that don't actually feature protagonists, therefore the industry isn't as eager to cater to them. Granted the person pointing this out used a lot of hyperbole and falsities, but it is true nevertheless (it's frustratingly impossible to find another girl IRL to talk about stuff like Vagrant Story, Actraiser, Dark Souls, and Killing Floor with), although the industry seriously underestimates the actual percentage of female gamers and overestimates the percent of "fratboy" consumers.

If game designers want to be smart though they really ought to create more games with non-objectified female protagonists, as a lot of men are indeed willing to deal with playing as a girl (this is where that other guy is also wrong) without doing it just to ogle her ass, and it will win over the interest of females who are otherwise on the fence, widening the market and opening up a new source of revenue.
>> No. 381699
File 137392949347.gif - (0.99MB , 500x280 , tumblr_mb5brajzSz1qa9qc7o1_500.gif )
>i'm going to go with idris elba anon and just post pictures of idris elba from now on when i don't have much to say

You've chosen the only true path to happiness, anon.
>> No. 381701
File 137392970232.png - (367.50KB , 500x600 , tumblr_lyhv0q0LdK1qzu6ivo1_500.png )
>> No. 381702
File 137392979245.gif - (903.88KB , 500x242 , tumblr_m8g33bZP4Z1qbvaudo3_500.gif )
>> No. 381703
File 137393017191.gif - (529.67KB , 245x165 , tumblr_mblag22Wao1rzrgtao4_250.gif )
>Who, me?
>> No. 381704
File 137393025718.png - (450.09KB , 500x749 , tumblr_mf3tsskdz21rrr5oio1_500.png )
>Never tell me the odds.
>> No. 381705
File 137393037189.jpg - (45.05KB , 500x699 , tumblr_mi1fi92akL1rrr5oio1_500.jpg )
>> No. 381706
File 137393047161.jpg - (66.97KB , 500x668 , tumblr_mi1c4yIGD21s5xud5o1_500.jpg )
>> No. 381708
File 137393154866.png - (603.69KB , 650x704 , nope.png )
My friends, it has often been said that I like sex. Friends, I like sex. No, friends, I love sex! I love orgies. I love gangbangs. I love egg-laying. I love cocks, tits, I love sex-change operations, and futas. Sex under the sheets, in streets, in beaches, in grasslands, in frozen tundras, through deserts, on the sea, in the air, I love every act of sex that can occur upon this earth.

I love blasting vaginas to smithereens with semen salvos that thunder across the lines of my bedroom. My heart leaps with joy whenever a hymen is tossed high into the air and cut to pieces by well placed penis thrusts, and there is nothing like a nubile rentboy using a dragon dildo to destroy enemy anuses. And the feeling that comes when a young man runs screaming from his blazing bedroom only to be mowed down by heavy bukkake fire, is such an exquisite feeling.

Like when ranks of teenage boys virgins brandish their erections rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deep within my heart to watch a fresh shota stabbing over and over into the moist vagina of a well-experienced woman. The sight of submissives being strung up from a sex dungeon is an irresistible pleasure. And there is nothing more arousing, than the sounds made by furry fetishists dropping like flies, screaming in bliss as they're worn out by ear piercing yiffs!

When a band of pitiful Internet nerds makes their final stands with nothing but small dicks, only to have their loli porn smashed to atoms block by block by Chris Hansen, I'm in ecstasy. I love it when my anus is ravaged by a Russian armored gimp. It's so sad to see geeks' delusions that were supposed to be defended at all costs, being laid to waste, their waifus and husbandos being raped, and masturbated to. I love to be squashed under the heel of the British and American dominatrixes. The humiliation, as my insides crawl around like vermin, ducking the jizz bombers flying overhead.

Gentlemen, all I ask for is sex. Sex so grand as to make Moot himself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow brothers and sisters in arms, what is it you really want? Do you wish for kinkier sex as I do? Do you wish for sensual, eyewatering sex? Sex whose fury is built with buttplugs, and dildos, and latex? Do you ask for orgasm to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even virgins to scavenge from this Earth?!
>> No. 381711
Do you not get that this:
>sexualized women in video games are what the average man wants to see
>Buff McLargehuge is what the average man wants to play as
Is fucking wrong.

He's 3/10 at best.
>> No. 381714
lol u
>> No. 381722
File 137394255269.jpg - (11.19KB , 120x115 , 1283021862041.jpg )
>Do you have any idea how self centered THIS sounds?

Being a buff stoic white male is in no way the power fantasy of A TON of men who play video games (one might actually argue that this is in part why Master Chief is so loved, because under the helmet you can't tell Halo 4 was garbage and so was that eye reveal).

But you don't see the irony when YOU say "Of course being a blonde big tittied Bimbo is a female sexual fantasy". It's roughly the same. And yet, the overwhelm majority of Video Game protagonists are Buff Stoic White Males, and while the blonde bimbo is a bit much practically every woman in games has to have some kind of "sexy" armor scheme, regardless of how actually sensible that scheme is.

It isn't just about "identifying as" a character, it's about how other people perceive people of different colors, genders, strengths, abilities and weaknesses. It's about putting a Black Man in a position of Power and having people give him Respect. It's about putting a Gay Man or Woman in front of viewers in a way that shows them as Decent, Rational, Loving and Stable Human Beings, instead of some Stereotype. It's about a Woman being able to be a Main Character and Kiss Someone She Loves without the Production Studio throwing a Hissy Fit. It's about showing very Diverse Peoples that their skin color shouldn't matter, that their gender should not lock them out of opportunity, and that showing people of all shapes, sizes and colors that they are Worthwhile as People.

All of the "market research" that goes into gaming basically says "if they bought it before they'll buy it again", which is why no one has been able to unseat World of Warcraft in all these years (coincidentally, WoW actually has some of the highest numbers of Female Players out of any game on the market. Studies show that if you play WoW you are more likely not only to have had sex but to actively be in a relationship. Yeah you might both be fighting off heart disease but you'll have each other and statistically a leg up on any given CoD or Halo player http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/world-warcraft-future-online-dating-123662).

The issue is that even as a White Male, I don't actually identify with all these overly buff, muscly space marines. In fact, more frequently, the games I want to play let me define how I look, and I frequently want to look sleek and high tech rather than gruff and muscly. But the marketing tests somehow keep coming back to "fratboys are the only ones who will like and play these games" when that is patently false and even within the Fratboy demographic, not every Fratboy is white.

Sometimes it really feels like everyone who produces media just has no idea what this generation wants or why. I didn't have any problem with people of any skin color until somebody introduced me to the idea of racism. I don't care who the protagonist is or what form they take so long as it's a good game. But I am getting sick of seeing the same almost interchangeable cardboard dipshit gracing the cover of almost action-y shooter I play. Everything else in the media is geared to make my Demographic feel loved and all it does is make me feel isolated and bad, like somehow I'm holding the trigger to the head of the universe when I'm not really doing anything but trying to live. I don't need my needs to be exclusively catered to and some of the most poisonous, monstrous people I have ever encountered have come from exactly those backgrounds, where they don't believe they have to change or adapt or even just let other people take center stage for a while. That's the issue.

Oh Captain My Captain
Prometheus - Love The One You're Withyoutube thumb
>> No. 381757
Yeah black guys want to be white, that's their fantasy.

Being a busty attractive female is in no way the power fantasy of A TON of women who play video games.... you know what, never mind, you'll never understand how hypocritical you are.
>> No. 381763
Did you miss the "in no way" part of what he wrote? He specifically went on to explain it's how marketing perceives the world, not the way it really is. So I'm guessing we ought to have marketing departments hire sociologists or something?
>> No. 381773
What if we put all the Vidya Gaem marketers in some sort of camp, so they could concentrate on the problem all they want.
>> No. 381774
What if we put all the Vidya Gaem marketers in some sort of camp, so they could concentrate on the problem all they want.
>> No. 381775
obviously we don't all want to be busty white women or we wouldn't be complaining about it
>> No. 381832
>Yeah black guys want to be white, that's their fantasy.

Where did I actually say that? And if so, why would I be making this argument? If everybody wanted to be white, there'd be no problem with the demographics in games and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
>> No. 381891
>/pol/ discussing sex bots turns into potential console war sex bot equivalent
>> No. 382082
>never had a girlfriend (not a virgin, just a one night stand)
>in international relations so the background noise is filled with crying about patriarchy and the evils of the masculine and drunk rape and all that shit
>guys everywhere think I'm gay for not having an interest in the drunk girls that dot our campus
>i cant think of women sexually normally, I view them as friends or acquaintances or coworkers first
>if I ever do see one as sexual, i say nothing because often said women is gay or in a relationship
>AND all I feel is a desire to tie them up or rape them or torture them some other fashion or just kill them
>I masturbate to fantasies of skinning the gender studies chick in our class
>I can't talk to anyone about these thoughts because they'll try and put me on drugs or stop talking to me when all I want is some sort of release for this, even if it is just masturbating to torture porn forever
I wonder if I hate women or just am psychotic or I'm just frustrated by my own lack of success with intimacy.

I'm not a bad person. I don't want to hate people and I'm not some paranoid society-hater. But the female sexual form unaltered just causes this odd reaction in me, and i dont know what to do with it.
>> No. 382611
>>attracted to men
>>figure I must be straight
>>begrudgingly admit I'm attracted to women, and always have been
>>so I'm bi, alright
>>get along better relationship-wise with women, but more sexually attracted to dudes
>>sometimes I don't want to think about relationships or sex at all
>>get asked a lot if I'm ace
>>thinking about sex is a lot easier when I imagine myself with a penis
>>probably not transgender because I only have this feeling during sexual fantasies, I don't dwell on what I do or don't have in my pants unless I'm potentially sleeping with someone

Sexuality is weird, man.
>> No. 391810
You really make it seem so easy together with your presentation but I in finding this topic to be really something that I feel I might by no means understand. It kind of feels too complex and very huge for me. I am taking a look ahead to your next post, I will attempt to get the cling of it!
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>> No. 391811
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