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  • 08/21/12 - Poll ended; /cod/ split off as a new board from /pco/.

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374509 No. 374509
Last thread: >>372500
Expand all images
>> No. 374510
>>374503
>So you don't think the elected REPRESENTATIVES who were elected to REPRESENT us shouldn't REPRESENT us?
I have yet to see an elected federal Congressman actually represent me. Sometimes the state congress will (like the recent CO legalization of marijuana, where I live, though that was also through a voter referendum). But so far they mostly represent giant corporations or special interests, depending on which side of the coin they land.

>So you are perfectly ok with personhood bills, even though places like Mississippi roundly reject them when voting on them.
Bills aren't the problem, passing them is. You'll always have some district soundly crazy and they'll hire a soundly crazy person to represent them, which gets bills like that and saying that conception begins two months before it begins. And, no, I'm not okay with that bill in the least.

>After all since Congress no longer needs to abid by what the people want.
That's the great thing about a Representative Democracy: the people can't vote directly. California does that, they have problems all over the damn place. They want everything and they want it all free. While elected representatives are supposed to represent the public, the public's demands should not be the only concern. Congressmen should be able to decide what is best for everyone, including those they represent, and have the fortitude to vote against the public if they understand that doing so is best in the long term. Yes, I know this means you get things like the personhood bill, but as you said that's soundly rejected.

I'm not saying that a long process always results in good, but that it's more likely to do so than quick, knee-jerk reactions.
>> No. 374512
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374512
>>374510
>But so far they mostly represent giant corporations or special interests, depending on which side of the coin they land.
You are right. That's why we need to abolish Congress entirely. In fact outside of Dennis Kucinich, Alan Grayson, Bernie Sanders, and a few others the entire US Congress was representatives of wallstreet and Federal Reserve.

>That's the great thing about a Representative Democracy: the people can't vote directly. California does that, they have problems all over the damn place. They want everything and they want it all free.

So you agree that Congress is corrupt and dominated by corporations and special interests and yet want to continue it? In Pennsylvania, under the far right wing Tom Corbet, he has privatized the schools, passed a voter suppression law, and now trying to change the electoral college. And there is nothing we Pennsylvanians can do about it because we don't have direct democracy here unlike CA. I think everyone should be left to the will of the people, other than people's civil rights of course.

As for CA, they passed higher taxes this election which will help pay for more programs there. We could give everyone in this country healthcare if we removed all of the troops in just Afghanistan alone.

>Congressmen should be able to decide what is best for everyone, including those they represent, and have the fortitude to vote against the public if they understand that doing so is best in the long term.

So you would be ok with your Congressman/women voting for the Iraq War? I'm not comfortable with electing people who don't represent me. They put the interests of corporations and special interests above the American people.

>Yes, I know this means you get things like the personhood bill, but as you said that's soundly rejected.

In Ohio, they are trying to pass it there. They also are tying to ban abortion in Arkansas. In Mississippi, the state legislator is making it impossible to have abortion clinics in the state open.
>> No. 374520
>>374512
>abolish congress

See this is what I was saying with the crazy shit.

The system is unfortunate but it is necessary, and the money feeds it. The money will feed whatever system you place in power, regardless of how you structure it. There will never be a system without graft. There will never be a system without violence. If US is not top dog, someone else is.

You say you don't like being represented by somebody who doesn't have your interests at heart? That's the same way everyone who's trying to pass the anti-abortion bills feels. Never mind that proper sex education, with condoms and a good bit of explicitness, would do more than they ever could to prevent abortions. But they find the notion abhorrent either way.

Demanding the full-out evaporation of a constitutional amendment is silly. So is demanding the dissolution of congress. There are some fucked up things in the system and I do agree that not all of them should tolerated, but the whole point of this is that the system is supposed to be modifiable. We're trying to find something that works for everyone, not burn one group in effigy because we decided they weren't working out.
>> No. 374521
I'd be all for a modern rewrite of the Constitution to more accurately define what is represented by what, what is protected under law,etcetera, etcetera, but I'm terrified as to what the results would actually end up being. Either way, an absolute document designed in modern parlance would help to quell some of the debates over certain issues (or be the last straw that makes people pack up and head out).

As far as Congress goes, I'm in favor of what Autonymoose is saying, and anon here. People in large groups aren't as stupid as we make them out to be, but if it were up to a large chunk of the population they'd abolish all taxes and still require free things. We need people on top that can choose what to sacrifice from column A to appease column B, and vice versa, and compromises are not something that the general voting populace is good at.
>> No. 374523
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374523
>>374520
>See this is what I was saying with the crazy shit.

You know what is actually crazy? President Obama having the right to kill American citizens without trail, but it's ok when a Democrat does it right guys?

>The system is unfortunate but it is necessary, and the money feeds it. The money will feed whatever system you place in power, regardless of how you structure it. There will never be a system without graft. There will never be a system without violence. If US is not top dog, someone else is.

No it's not necessary. If the American people voted do you think they would have voted for the 2012 NDAA which allows the US government to detain any US civilian without trail forever? Oh course not. So why did Congress vote overwhelming for it? Congress voted for our entire enslavement by the government forces.

>You say you don't like being represented by somebody who doesn't have your interests at heart? That's the same way everyone who's trying to pass the anti-abortion bills feels. Never mind that proper sex education, with condoms and a good bit of explicitness, would do more than they ever could to prevent abortions. But they find the notion abhorrent either way.

American politics has swung so far right. Richard Nixon is to the left of Obama on everything. They are so beyond the realm of reality it's shocking.

>Demanding the full-out evaporation of a constitutional amendment is silly.

Well than I guess Bush/Obama are silly because they already got rid of habeas corpus, and going to Congress for a declaration of war. But at least we got our guns rights guys!
>> No. 374528
>>374523
>Obama has the right to kill any American citizen without trial
[Citation Needed]

>If the people could vote on these things do you think they'd vote in the NDAA?
Seeing as most of the population probably can't understand lawyerspeak, if you handed it to them and asked them to vote on it, I'd say they might.

>American Politics has swung so far right
And Obama's on the relative shallow end of that. However "bad" a job he's doing, I'm willing to give him a lot of credit for actually being good at the job. Whatever rights you feel are violated now would have been so much worse under any republican candidate thrown up in the last 10 years.

You think this bill is going to throw people in jail with no trial. For 98% of Americans, they will never actually encounter this bill in action. We worry about freedom, piece of mind, but then we flip out when some nutter shoots up a school. We don't want to be monitored, but certain levels of monitoring can be useful, even necessary. The thing is, for the vast majority of the populace, we don't ever do anything so wrong that the FBI or the Police really have to worry about.

When the system works, that is when it's not staffed by raging incompetents a la the Bush era, we actually do target people who represent threats to the general population.

You see no disconnect between calling for the abolition of guns and congress at the same time. I'd love to hear your plan. You're panicking all over this "They can do WHAT" shit and they could do it since the 1950s. I'm happy they're writing it into law and putting it up for public review, rather than just quietly hiring death squads.

You scream about all this shit and it's like what have you done? What are you truly afraid of with these guys? Your Habeas Corpus rights are only null and void when you're suspected of Terrorism, they're not just thrown out the window.

Much as you feel like it's broken, the system is still very much in motion, and trying to force massive ground-up structural changes in it right now is going to hamper us internationally and grant us a new government with new words for the same problems we have now. There is no gain to be had from drastic restructurings of our government.

And please, drop the troll name. I have no intention of arguing with someone who wears their stubbornness on their sleeve with such bravado.
>> No. 374529
>>374523
>Obama has the right to kill any American citizen without trial
[Citation Needed]

>If the people could vote on these things do you think they'd vote in the NDAA?
Seeing as most of the population probably can't understand lawyerspeak, if you handed it to them and asked them to vote on it, I'd say they might.

>American Politics has swung so far right
And Obama's on the relative shallow end of that. However "bad" a job he's doing, I'm willing to give him a lot of credit for actually being good at the job. Whatever rights you feel are violated now would have been so much worse under any republican candidate thrown up in the last 10 years.

You think this bill is going to throw people in jail with no trial. For 98% of Americans, they will never actually encounter this bill in action. We worry about freedom, piece of mind, but then we flip out when some nutter shoots up a school. We don't want to be monitored, but certain levels of monitoring can be useful, even necessary. The thing is, for the vast majority of the populace, we don't ever do anything so wrong that the FBI or the Police really have to worry about.

When the system works, that is when it's not staffed by raging incompetents a la the Bush era, we actually do target people who represent threats to the general population.

You see no disconnect between calling for the abolition of guns and congress at the same time. I'd love to hear your plan. You're panicking all over this "They can do WHAT" shit and they could do it since the 1950s. I'm happy they're writing it into law and putting it up for public review, rather than just quietly hiring death squads.

You scream about all this shit and it's like what have you done? What are you truly afraid of with these guys? Your Habeas Corpus rights are only null and void when you're suspected of Terrorism, they're not just thrown out the window.

Much as you feel like it's broken, the system is still very much in motion, and trying to force massive ground-up structural changes in it right now is going to hamper us internationally and grant us a new government with new words for the same problems we have now. There is no gain to be had from drastic restructurings of our government.

And please, drop the troll name. I have no intention of arguing with someone who wears their stubbornness on their sleeve with such bravado.
>> No. 374534
>>374529
>[Citation Needed]
He's referring to NDAA. The rules for how it can be implemented were leaked--they're not quite as dire as he's making it out, but they're still pretty fuckin' dire. The government needs to suspect an American citizen of being in league with Al Quaeda, and consider it impossible to detain them before they can aid in a terrorist attack or something (this apparently means they have to be in a foreign country that's difficult to reach people in, according to some sources), and it can't. But yes, NDAA does apparently give Obama and his administration the power to assassinate American citizens without trial via dronestrike. And that's completely unacceptable regardless of the rationale or the justification. There should never be a situation where the government can kill someone without both a trial and a pile of paperwork a mile long that any citizen can access.
>> No. 374543
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374543
>>374528
>[Citation Needed]
Guess you haven't been paying attention to the news lately.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/politics/us-memo-details-views-on-killing-citizens-in-al-qaeda.html?_r=0

>Seeing as most of the population probably can't understand lawyerspeak, if you handed it to them and asked them to vote on it, I'd say they might.

>And Obama's on the relative shallow end of that. However "bad" a job he's doing, I'm willing to give him a lot of credit for actually being good at the job. Whatever rights you feel are violated now would have been so much worse under any republican candidate thrown up in the last 10 years.

I never said Republicans candidates would have been better. Mitt Romney would have been a catastrophe compared to Obama. However doesn't change the fact that, as Cornel West said, Obama is a Rockefeller Republican in blackface in the white house. Let me sum up the few things I actually glad Obama did as president:

* Lilly Led Better Act
* Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act
* Repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell
* Killed Osama Bin Laden
* Ending the Iraq War (finally)
* Supporting gay marriage (however screwed up when he said "state by state")

And that's about it. Besides that Obama is to the right of Richard Nixon.

>You think this bill is going to throw people in jail with no trial. For 98% of Americans, they will never actually encounter this bill in action. We worry about freedom, piece of mind, but then we flip out when some nutter shoots up a school. We don't want to be monitored, but certain levels of monitoring can be useful, even necessary. The thing is, for the vast majority of the populace, we don't ever do anything so wrong that the FBI or the Police really have to worry about.

LGBT make up somewhere between 5% of the US population. I'm part of that 5% myself. We can't marry in 41 of the 50 US state as of February 2013. Should we not care about LGBT rights simply because they are a minority? I thought the US Constitution was made to protect minority rights from the tyranny of the majority. You know in Nazi Germany first they came for the Jews and they said nothing. And than they came for the socialists and trade unionists and they said nothing. And finally they came for the priests and pastors and by than there was no one left to speak out for them.

You know when Obama first got elected I thought comparing Obama to Hitler was insane. However everything changed with the passage of the NDAA of 2012.

>When the system works, that is when it's not staffed by raging incompetents a la the Bush era, we actually do target people who represent threats to the general population.

You have clearly been brainwashed by the media into believing we are killing just terrorists with these drones strikes. When Bush did unconstitutional shit he was whipping his ass with the Constitution, but now that Obama is doing it, it's because of our national security.

>You see no disconnect between calling for the abolition of guns and congress at the same time. I'd love to hear your plan. You're panicking all over this "They can do WHAT" shit and they could do it since the 1950s. I'm happy they're writing it into law and putting it up for public review, rather than just quietly hiring death squads.

So you would rather have a president who has a secret list of people he personally chooses himself to send a drone and kill?

>You scream about all this shit and it's like what have you done? What are you truly afraid of with these guys? Your Habeas Corpus rights are only null and void when you're suspected of Terrorism, they're not just thrown out the window.

What if Obama declares that Occupy movement is a terrorist organization and starts detaining them indefinitely? If I even speak up against that I'm be in jail or they are gonna kill me. If we don't speak out for the rights of terrorists to a right to trail than who will speak out for our rights? If we don't stop this now we won't have an American anymore.

>There is no gain to be had from drastic restructurings of our government.

There are such as civil liberties, more democratic representation, etc.

>And please, drop the troll name. I have no intention of arguing with someone who wears their stubbornness on their sleeve with such bravado.

I don't want to become another anon. Ok which new name would you suggest?
>> No. 374548
>>374543
If you want to have a discussion I'/d rather you not act like a massive cock about it, but having a name like "REPEAL THE SECOND AMENDMENT" does not lend itself to someone to be taken seriously in a political case.

>LGBT make up somewhere between 5% of the US population. I'm part of that 5% myself. We can't marry in 41 of the 50 US state as of February 2013. Should we not care about LGBT rights simply because they are a minority? I thought the US Constitution was made to protect minority rights from the tyranny of the majority. You know in Nazi Germany first they came for the Jews and they said nothing. And than they came for the socialists and trade unionists and they said nothing. And finally they came for the priests and pastors and by than there was no one left to speak out for them.
You know when Obama first got elected I thought comparing Obama to Hitler was insane. However everything changed with the passage of the NDAA of 2012.

wow, such a shocking misunderstanding of history and high school level arguing, this is the perfect shitposting right here.

I'm going to assume you have the understanding of why making a emotional appeal in the form of a godwin argument is stupid and move on to this part
>You know when Obama first got elected I thought comparing Obama to Hitler was insane. However everything changed with the passage of the NDAA of 2012.

I guarantee you every single president has done soundly unconstitutional(in hindsight) acts. Basically all of Lincoln for one, FDR for internment camps,
if you want you can even blame Eisenhower for the most massive case of eminent domain in history, the freeway.

Simply put your talking about something that has systematically been happening since the birth of these united states.
>> No. 374552
>Greenland
Open Prison - Greenlandyoutube thumb
>> No. 374555
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374555
>>374548
>If you want to have a discussion I'/d rather you not act like a massive cock about it, but having a name like "REPEAL THE SECOND AMENDMENT" does not lend itself to someone to be taken seriously in a political case.

You should know that I came up with that name a few days after the Sandy School Shooting. Fine I changed it. Happy?

>wow, such a shocking misunderstanding of history and high school level arguing, this is the perfect shitposting right here.

>I'm going to assume you have the understanding of why making a emotional appeal in the form of a godwin argument is stupid and move on to this part

>I guarantee you every single president has done soundly unconstitutional(in hindsight) acts. Basically all of Lincoln for one, FDR for internment camps,

>if you want you can even blame Eisenhower for the most massive case of eminent domain in history, the freeway.

Eisenhower also overthrow the democratic government of Iran and install a psychopathic Shah into power. I'm fully well aware of the crimes of the American empire. As for Lincoln and FDR they were both fighting against legitimate threats of slavery by Confederates and Axis Powers. They also gave up those special powers after the wars. Obama however is gonna keep the war on terror around forever. It will be a permanent war just as foretold in George Orwell's 1984.

>Simply put your talking about something that has systematically been happening since the birth of these united states.

Obama is however is so made with power he's starting illegal wars across the world, in Libya, in Pakistan, in Yemen, in Somalia, and god only knows where else. Obama has the power to kill or detain any US citizen when ever he feels like it. No president before him has had that kind of power. Do you really want just one man to have all of that power? Obama could easily declare the Occupy movement as terrorists and send them to Guantanamo Bay. Wake up! Why do you think Obama learned to be Constitutional law professor? Simply so he maneuver around the Constitution. Under Obama we got: extend Patriot Act, extended 2008 FISA, 2012 NDAA, a drone war in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, and Somalia. And yet the liberal establishment hasn't said a word about this. Where did all of the anti-protesters go? If Bush had done what Obama did there would have been a revolt in this country.

If we don't stop this now we won't have any more civil liberties. We are already a quasi-police state. You can not rely on Congress, you cannot rely not the judges or the courts, and we can not rely on he media. All we have left is civil disobedience to the corporate state.
>> No. 374556
>>374555
>You should know that I came up with that name a few days after the Sandy School Shooting. Fine I changed it. Happy?
Yes.

>I'm fully well aware of the crimes of the American empire. As for Lincoln and FDR they were both fighting against legitimate threats of slavery by Confederates and Axis Powers. They also gave up those special powers after the wars

They didn't give those powers up, they merely set the standard for future presidents as to what is accept use of the presidents power.

>Obama however is gonna keep the war on terror around forever. It will be a permanent war just as foretold in George Orwell's 1984.

The only thing that is does actually last forever is the fact that there will conflicts on the world stage. the world does not operate in a vacuum, Your going to have to define exactly what the war on terror is. Also 1984 is a book not a prophecy, its intellectually lazy to reference it in that sort of way.


>s starting illegal wars across the world

reference; every presidential administration since Regan.

> Obama has the power to kill or detain any US citizen when ever he feels like it.

gross exaggeration address earlier in this thread.

>Wake up
Don't you dare bring this condescending horseshit here when you sound exactly like someone who is painfully politically not self-aware

> yet the liberal establishment hasn't said a word about this.

Of course not, that why the right says it. Are you blind to the people who don't like obama?

>If we don't stop this now we won't have any more civil liberties. We are already a quasi-police state. You can not rely on Congress, you cannot rely not the judges or the courts, and we can not rely on he media. All we have left is civil disobedience to the corporate state.

This is exactly the reason behind having the second amendment.


You sound exactly like a disenfranchised liberal. Half of the stuff you are talking about is inherent about institutional power since the birth of politics, the other half of the time you sound like a patronizing ass. I mean just reading this thread is mostly people disagreeing with you, hell most of 4chans /pol/ has better arguments.

I'm bowing out of this thread, nothing interesting here.
>> No. 374561
>>374556
>Your going to have to define exactly what the war on terror is.
It'd be lovely if the people who started it and perpetuate it would do that, too.
>> No. 374565
>>374561
Also, the war on drugs.
>> No. 374567
Look, we just have to wait for all the old people to be dead, it's not that hard. Hell, they hate healthcare and medical research, they're basically killing themselves for us!

once the parasites are gone, we can start fixing things properly
>> No. 374568
>>374567
That's the same policy the Baby Boomers lived by. Then they turned INTO the old people.

Think of it--Baby Boomers have more or less absolute power in this country right now, and marijuana hasn't even started moving towards legalization until they started retiring. Corporations are more powerful than they've ever been, despite the people who founded the hippie movement being in charge. We're still fighting pointless, stupid, unending wars over nothing and sacrificing our young people to keep fighting them. It's fairly clear that the fact that young people actually have principles and ideals is something that goes away when they get older.
>> No. 374569
>>374568
You make a good point.

Nothing for it but revolt I guess.
>> No. 374572
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374572
>>374556
>They didn't give those powers up, they merely set the standard for future presidents as to what is accept use of the presidents power.

Not true.

>The only thing that is does actually last forever is the fact that there will conflicts on the world stage. the world does not operate in a vacuum, Your going to have to define exactly what the war on terror is. Also 1984 is a book not a prophecy, its intellectually lazy to reference it in that sort of way.

The war on terror is just like the war on drugs. It's created by the US government in order for the military industrial complex to grow completely out of control. Hell al-qaeda doesn't even really exist anymore, at least not it's 2001 version of al-qaeda. As for 1984, it has become a model if you will for all totalitarian dictators. As long as there is a war or a state of war it gives the government the ability to strip us of our rights.

>reference; every presidential administration since Regan.

So because everyone does it, that makes it ok?

>gross exaggeration address earlier in this thread.

Not true. All you have to be is "associated" in order to be killed like the Imam who spoke out against al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda members meet him and they all got killed in a drone strike. For all we know the government could label Code Pink as associate forces of al-Qaeda.

>Of course not, that why the right says it. Are you blind to the people who don't like obama?

Actually the right supports this too.

>This is exactly the reason behind having the second amendment.

Lot of good that hand gun will do when a drone come out of no were and kills you.

>You sound exactly like a disenfranchised liberal.

And you sound like you have been brainwashed by the msm.
>> No. 374573
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374573
>>374556
>They didn't give those powers up, they merely set the standard for future presidents as to what is accept use of the presidents power.

Not true.

>The only thing that is does actually last forever is the fact that there will conflicts on the world stage. the world does not operate in a vacuum, Your going to have to define exactly what the war on terror is. Also 1984 is a book not a prophecy, its intellectually lazy to reference it in that sort of way.

The war on terror is just like the war on drugs. It's created by the US government in order for the military industrial complex to grow completely out of control. Hell al-qaeda doesn't even really exist anymore, at least not it's 2001 version of al-qaeda. As for 1984, it has become a model if you will for all totalitarian dictators. As long as there is a war or a state of war it gives the government the ability to strip us of our rights.

>reference; every presidential administration since Regan.

So because everyone does it, that makes it ok?

>gross exaggeration address earlier in this thread.

Not true. All you have to be is "associated" in order to be killed like the Imam who spoke out against al-Qaeda and al-Qaeda members meet him and they all got killed in a drone strike. For all we know the government could label Code Pink as associate forces of al-Qaeda.

>Of course not, that why the right says it. Are you blind to the people who don't like obama?

Actually the right supports this too.

>This is exactly the reason behind having the second amendment.

Lot of good that hand gun will do when a drone come out of no were and kills you.

>You sound exactly like a disenfranchised liberal.

And you sound like you have been brainwashed by the msm.
>> No. 374587
i heard politics and came running
/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿̿̿ ̿ ̿̿ …youtube thumb
>> No. 374589
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374589
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdP-mbswSc0

John Brennan is a war criminal and needs to be jail. John Brennan's actual war philosophy is that you have to take lies in order to save lives. He conducted war-boarding under the Bush regime and now is killing countless innocent civilians in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Afghanistan. The biggest threat to national security is John Brennan because he's making millions of people around the world hate the USA with these drone strikes.

All of those 100 Senators need to publicly apologize on tv to the entire population of USA, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Afghanistan that have allowed this hearing to happen and also apologize for every single civilian that has lost their lives at the hands of drone strikes. I'm so sick and disgusted by the silence of the liberals when it comes to John Brennan. You don't say anything because there is a Democrat in office, even though there is not a lick of difference between George W. Bush and Barrack Obama. Obama is Bush's 4th term.
>> No. 374590
>>374589
> even though there is not a lick of difference between George W. Bush and Barrack Obama.
Except for competence.
>> No. 374661
Creationist Senator wants to k…youtube thumb
>> No. 374725
File 136069545168.jpg - (211.95KB , 600x878 , THESEARCH4.jpg )
374725
So President Obama will deliver his state of the union address tonight. Here's some things Obama has to address in his speech:

Wealth inequality:

* Poverty - With the exception of a few black people in the middle to upper class, most black people in America are doing worse now than they were in the 1960s. There are many things to contributed to this mainly the so called "war on drugs", greedy plutocrats, runaway access to guns in urban communities, cuts in social programs, overseas imperial wars for the amercian empire, so called "welfare reform", and other neo-liberal policies implemented from 1970s to the present. There needs to be massive trillions of dollars spent in investments in jobs, infrastructure, education, etc. to help not just the black community but also he Latino, Asian, and white community.

* Unregulated market corporate capitalism - The 2008 rescission was caused mainly due to the repeal of Glass–Steagall Act. Since the 2008 rescission and the bailout of the big banks, wallstreet is now doing better than ever. 1 out of 4 corporations don't pay taxes. There needs to be arrests for the criminals of wallstreet. We need to nationalize all of those big bangs we bailout with our tax payer dollars. And stop with the corporate welfare for the big banks and oil companies.

* Political reform - Both parties are tied to corporate oligarchy. All of US legislation is written by big corporations. We need to not only overturn Citizens United by overturn the two party state in general and get big money and special interests out of policies and stop the never ending political campaigns and endless amounts of collecting of campaign money while at the same time 41% of children in the USA are living in poverty.

Foreign policy:

* Afghanistan - Compete and total withdraw of US forces immediately.

* Kurdistan - The largest stateless minority on the entire planet. Outside of autonomous region of Iraqi Kurdistan, there are millions of Kurds in Turkey, Iran, and Syria live under impressive repression. There should be a support for a self determined democratic secular state for Kurdish people.

* Israel - The "official" US policy towards the Israel-Palestinian conflict is a two state solution. However in practice the US government will allow Israel to do whatever it feels like it and give it's veto approval in the UN. The US government is very two faced when it comes to Palestine. Personally I support a one state solution myself with both Israel and Palestinian borders abolished and both groups have equal representation in parliament. Best way towards peace is to put pressure/sanctions on the Zionist regime every time they continue to build settlements in the West Bank and stop vetoing overwhelming UN resolutions on Israel.

* Iran - The best way to deal with Iran obtaining nuclear weapons is to purpose a nuclear free zone in the middle. There is overwhelming support in the international community for this. All middle eastern countries, including Israel, will give up their nuclear weapons or their pursuit to obtain nuclear weapons. In fact to discourage nuclear weapons, the USA should get get rid of them as well.

* Syria - It's important to condemn both the Assad regime and terrorists actions of some of the rebels. Stay out of the Syrian civil war at all costs.

LGBT rights:

* Marriage equality - The US Supreme Court will hear to major cases for the first time on marriage equality. There needs to be a declaration from our president that marriage equality is a constitutional right and should be protected by the federal government.

* Equal protection - Currently 16 US states have laws protecting sexual orientation and gender identity and 21 protecting sexual orientation only in the workplace from discrimination. There needs to be federal employment discrimination laws for sexual orientation and gender identity for gay brothers and sisters in places like North Carolina, in Texas, in West Virginia, etc. Repeal so called "right to work laws" that allow bosses to fire their employers without cause.

Civil liberties:

* Drones - We need to stop dropping drones on innocent Muslim people around the world and creating more terrorists with these illegal and unconstitutional acts.
>> No. 374729
>>374725
>With the exception of a few black people in the middle to upper class

Almost all NBA Players, a big chunk of NFL players (who avoid bankruptcy), Samuel L. Jackson and a host of other black celebrities who make upper-class wealth even for the C-List stars is NOT an exception. That is a goddamn sizable and powerful group.

The inequality is falling prey to lacking ambition, and all the money anyway you want spent for "education" and "jobs", how much of those would be for 20 million dollars a film, or a 30 million dollar sports contract? Until I see some money being spent on average people somehow breaking into Hollywood where the real money is, and where you don't need to necessarily know what you're doing to be getting paid handsomely, unlike any other profession, then it's just a waste of money.
>> No. 374732
>>374725
I can't take anything you say seriously when you're avataring like that.
>> No. 374735
>>374729
>Almost all NBA Players, a big chunk of NFL players (who avoid bankruptcy), Samuel L. Jackson and a host of other black celebrities who make upper-class wealth even for the C-List stars is NOT an exception. That is a goddamn sizable and powerful group.
No. As Chris Rock pointed out, there's a difference between "rich" and "wealthy." Wealth lasts generations, gets spread out to others, and affects the economy--wealthy people don't play basketball or act in movies, they own basketball teams and movie studios. The fact that there are so few black people who meet those criteria is a problem.
>> No. 374737
File 136071051823.png - (498.33KB , 720x480 , ep21-531.png )
374737
>>374729
>Almost all NBA Players, a big chunk of NFL players (who avoid bankruptcy), Samuel L. Jackson and a host of other black celebrities who make upper-class wealth even for the C-List stars is NOT an exception. That is a goddamn sizable and powerful group.

What you fail to realize is that group of upper class blacks could care less about the rest of black community. It's kinda like in South Africa and the end of apartheid. Nelson Mandela didn't get out of prison without first striking a deal which established an elite class of wealthy blacks in South Africa and the white National Party will hold a certain number of seats in parliament no matter what. More blacks are worse off due to this deal than they were under apartheid. So it's less about race and also more about class struggle.

The problem with African Americans in the USA is they have to deal with the legacy of white racism, along with two political parties both controlled by the plutocrats and the oligarchy. Neither Obama nor the Congressional Black Caucus really care about the black community. Blacks mainly vote Democrat simply because they are community that historically is persecuted, just like how Hispanics, Asians, Jews, homosexuals, atheists, Muslims, women, etc. all vote Democrat. Because the persecuted groups all stick together.

>The inequality is falling prey to lacking ambition, and all the money anyway you want spent for "education" and "jobs", how much of those would be for 20 million dollars a film, or a 30 million dollar sports contract? Until I see some money being spent on average people somehow breaking into Hollywood where the real money is, and where you don't need to necessarily know what you're doing to be getting paid handsomely, unlike any other profession, then it's just a waste of money.

What about the billions we spend on corporate welfare? What about the billions on foreign illegal wars? What about the billions we spend on military industrial complex? What about the billions spend on the failed war on drugs?

Notice how Congress never brings up cutting any of these things I brought up. However every chance they get they want to cut welfare programs for the poor. Also notice how Obama never says poor. It's always 'middle class'.
>> No. 374739
Bill Cosby.
>> No. 374740
>>374737
>The problem with African Americans in the USA is they have to deal with the legacy of white racism, along with two political parties both controlled by the plutocrats and the oligarchy. Neither Obama nor the Congressional Black Caucus really care about the black community. Blacks mainly vote Democrat simply because they are community that historically is persecuted, just like how Hispanics, Asians, Jews, homosexuals, atheists, Muslims, women, etc. all vote Democrat. Because the persecuted groups all stick together.
I disagree. I think minorities vote democrat because a party that pretends to, but doesn't really give a shit about you is still better than a party that is actively working against you.
>> No. 374741
>>374735
The wealthiest person in the world is Mexican.
>> No. 374742
>>374741
One person is not equal representation. If the racial makeup of any given economic class does not resemble the racial makeup of the country fairly well (within the expectations of statistical significance, as it's difficult for smaller subgroups to exactly reflect the makeup of the larger groups they are part of) as a whole, it's indicative of systemic inequality. According to the census, 13% of Americans are black, which means it's not unfair to expect at least one in ten of the wealthiest individuals of the country to be black. If you get a list of the 200 wealthiest people in the US, if the US has equality in place, you should get somewhere around 20 black people in it, as well as about 10 asians, 4 people of mixed race, and 30 hispanic or latino people in it. On top of that, it should be a little over one hundred women (as women are actually a slight majority of the population) and a little under one hundred men.

This is all based on data from 2011, mind, and I'm giving conservative figures. Again, a certain degree of wiggle room is to be expected because the sample size is so much smaller, but it is reasonable to expect figures not terribly removed from what I've listed here in an equal society. If it doesn't match that, it's indicative of systemic inequality built into the system, and often the most difficult kind to fight--the insidious kind that comes not from overt policy, but from things like low expectations or other intangibles. You can't really write laws to fight that stuff (other than to treat the symptoms maybe), since a lot of it is cultural, but it's a fairly clear indicator of lack of equality.
>> No. 374743
>>374740
>I disagree. I think minorities vote democrat because a party that pretends to, but doesn't really give a shit about you is still better than a party that is actively working against you.

Ding ding. I'm black and can cosign this message.
>> No. 374744
>>374743
there are a bunch of people who care who just can't do anything because of cock blocks and red tape

but i agree

i'm brown

i know the drill
>> No. 374745
>>374744
>there are a bunch of people who care who just can't do anything because of cock blocks and red tape

Politics are fun times, aren't they?
>> No. 374746
>>374745
yup.
>> No. 374747
>Daily Show
John's pissed at Cheney and DID HE JUST MAKE A PULGASARI JOKE
>> No. 374749
>>374742
Well Asians are about 4.8% and I believe they score a higher household income than whites, and that's after disregarding some of the inferior subgroups from that percentage, so it's even smaller...but I don't have a figure in front of me to back that up precisely, just something I remember reading.

The reason I brought up the Mexican tycoon is I feel one is enough of a representation when it comes to such ridiculously anomalous income. I find that whole comment about how there is racial inequality when it comes to who is in the 99.999999999999 percent with vast multi generational wealth versus the 99.0 percent of millionaires who are still leaps and bounds better off than than the average median income earner, just nothing to be sad or bothered about. I don't exactly find it disturbing or unjust that even though there are plenty of rich people of color, there might be more white-only super-super unreal rich fuckers out there. I really wouldn't see it as income equality when that wealth at that absurd level is evenly dispersed through the races, it's an anomaly and I find it disgusting and unnecessary for any human being to have in the first place. If I had it my way there would be a legacy wealth cap to a certain point, but I certainly don't see it as inequality that there's not more minorities who have hundreds of millions instead of hundreds of thousands more than Joe Schmo.
>> No. 374750
>>374749
Bah, I meant 1 percent vs 0.00001 percent. Had 99 on my mind for some reason.
>> No. 374754
File 136073075521.jpg - (103.89KB , 500x484 , tumblr_m0xvniF7Fv1rn3rj8o1_500.jpg )
374754
http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200111--02.htm
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112--02.htm

>TFW you realize that the US technically counts as a terrorist state

When did you realize it, /baw/?
>> No. 374755
File 136073225685.png - (478.98KB , 720x480 , ep21-532.png )
374755
>>374740
>>374743
>Ding ding. I'm black and can cosign this message.
I never said the Republican party is equal to the Democratic party entirely. I said they were two factions of the business party. There are some very minor differences between the two. I'm just so sick of vote Democrat there is only a choice between a Dem and a Republican on the ballot.

There is no way to vote against the interests of the Goldman Sachs in the corporate state.

>>374744
>there are a bunch of people who care who just can't do anything because of cock blocks and red tape
Not really. Sure maybe there were a few progressive voices of Dennis Kucinich and Alan Grayson. However the Democratic party as a whole is very right wing compared to political parities in Europe. There is no left wing in American policies. It's a really extremely reactionary country. Hell socialism is a dirty word in America.

You have a Republican party that has become border line proto-fascist and a Democratic party that is incompetent supports the interests of big business. Both parties have adopted the fairy tale of free-market fundamentalism. Now Michigan, the heart of unions and workers for decades, has adopted so called "right to work laws."
>> No. 374756
File 136073290546.png - (490.68KB , 720x480 , ep21-533.png )
374756
>>374754
>When did you realize it, /baw/?
When I learned about the 1953 CIA coup in Iran, Vietnam war, Augusto Pinochet in Chile, support for military regimes in Greece, support Turks in persecuting Kurds, support Israelis in persecuting Palestinians, supporting Saddam Hussein and than sanctioning and invasion of Iraq, etc.

Ironically as a kid I used to be the only one in class to stand and say the pledge of allegiance in class. That was of course before I learned about the America empire.
>> No. 374761
>>374749
>The reason I brought up the Mexican tycoon is I feel one is enough of a representation when it comes to such ridiculously anomalous income. I find that whole comment about how there is racial inequality when it comes to who is in the 99.999999999999 percent with vast multi generational wealth versus the 99.0 percent of millionaires who are still leaps and bounds better off than than the average median income earner, just nothing to be sad or bothered about.
The reason that it's something to be concerned about is that wealth generates more money. People who are wealthy can put their money into businesses and people they believe in, and hire people who only get a shot because the gatekeepers allowed them in. When all, or even all but one, or anything short of fairly representative of the population at large, of the gatekeepers is a Straight White Male Judeochristian, that's Bad News. Because people tend to give those jobs, investments, what have you, to people who are either already known to them or who are most similar to them among the potential candidates. It's why it's harder to get a job if the name on your application is "Shaneequa" even if the person making the choice would have no objections to you if they met you in person.

Oh, also, the other reason it's important? The wealthy control the government in this country. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's a known thing and no one in government even seems to be trying to deny it anymore. The way you get to affect the laws is not by writing to your congressmen or voting for a given candidate anymore, it's by forming lobbying groups and political action committees that can afford to buy the government's loyalty and positive media coverage. You can't do that with basketball player money. You need "I buy and sell businesses for a living" money for your opinion to matter in government.
>> No. 374762
>>374761
So what's the solution? What is your stance on capping legacy wealth? I still can't think of one person who would be a righteous "gatekeeper" in such a scenario, who has upstanding character and keeps that much money? You're telling me if there's more people of color at the 0.0001 percent, the bottomline of turning profits is somehow going to be different?

>Because people tend to give those jobs, investments, what have you, to people who are either already known to them or who are most similar to them among the potential candidates. It's why it's harder to get a job if the name on your application is "Shaneequa" even if the person making the choice would have no objections to you if they met you in person.

Are you saying it's mostly all trickle down white privilege from the top? Because for the types of jobs you're describing, discounting family member favors and friendships, it sounds like the pool would already still be narrowed for people holding heavy degrees in finance or an exceptional talent in whatever this profession is, thus eliminating Shaneequa (if she's a commoner in this scenario) and 95 percent of the population.

It makes more sense to me not to lament or try to raise more mega wealthy landowners controlling the 99 percent of plebs, and refine inheritance wealth law.
>> No. 374763
>>374762
>So what's the solution?
It's pretty much all cultural, and it's all long term. There's no short-term fix for it. You have to have minorities present and visible in society in roles other than things that fit their stereotypes, so that the majority become desensitized to them and stop thinking of other races as "Other" or "Outsiders." We need to be in a situation where if a white man walks into a room full of black people as the only white person, he doesn't even really notice other than as a curiosity because he's so used to the idea of black people being part of his life.

Hollywood can do its part by giving black men who aren't Will Smith, Denzel Washington or Morgan Freeman leading roles in big-budget movies aimed at general audiences (as opposed to movies aimed explicitly at black audiences), and playing things other than criminals, athletes and rappers. And giving asian actors leading roles other than "Kung Fu guy," "Computer programmer," and "Asian sexpot." And giving latinos leading roles other than "Speedy Gonzales." And businesses can do their part by making an effort to hire more minorities into upper management, in visible positions.

Honestly, I think we're already on our way, but it's going to be a long road before we get there. It's possible that by the time the Millenial generation gets old enough that they're running the country, we'll get there (each generation has been better at being integrated, and the millenials are just more racially diverse than previous generations in the first place, even setting aside questions of integration), but that might be overly optimistic. It's a positive feedback loop, but one that moves at glacial speeds. There's no revolution to be had to overcome this sort of racism.
>> No. 374764
>>374756
this post is unintentionally hilarious with Azula
>> No. 374767
>>374763
So wait, just to be clear, you're fine with a single family having say more than 500 million or a billion dollars, that they can pass generation to generation within their family and use as a head start for investments and special interests, if they're not white or that kind of small percent group of families is culturally enriched?

>You have to have minorities present and visible in society in roles other than things that fit their stereotypes
>It's pretty much all cultural

None of those things have anything to do with legacy wealth or curtailing the problem described here:

>wealth generates more money. People who are wealthy can put their money into businesses and people they believe in, and hire people who only get a shot because the gatekeepers allowed them in. When all, or even all but one, or anything short of fairly representative of the population at large, of the gatekeepers is a Straight White Male Judeochristian, that's Bad News. Because people tend to give those jobs, investments, what have you, to people who are either already known to them or who are most similar to them among the potential candidates.

These wealthy who you claim control the government and have preferential treatment aren't going to go away or change as long as they control the gate through inheritance and everyone else pays them rent.

If you're speaking more practically about just more racially diverse gatekeepers who will give more jobs to everyone, how exactly is the Walton family for example keeping minorities down? These large businesses already hire people for cheap, and racial harmony isn't going to change the profit system. Minorities are already visible in society beyond stereotypes, those that go to college and get high end jobs exist, Asians for example as I said have a higher median income than whites, and anyway white population in the US is in a decline, in another forty years hispanics will healthily outnumber them.
>> No. 374769
One day I want to be as batshit as Rainbow Kid.

(incidentally European liberalism is fucking ridiculous and as many issues as I find with our country, I think the concept of removing the death penalty is totally retarded)
>> No. 374770
>>374764
I don't understand why he does this. If he wants to be taken seriously, it cripples him, if he's trolling, it makes it super obvious. It doesn't work either way.
>> No. 374771
File 136077496718.png - (443.32KB , 720x480 , ep21-534.png )
374771
>>374769
>One day I want to be as batshit as Rainbow Kid.

Ok anon how has anything I said batshit?

Those who are batshit are the ones opposing socialism. Anti-socialism is codeword for anti-democracy and pro-plutocracy.

Also the death penalty is barbaric.

>>374770
>I don't understand why he does this. If he wants to be taken seriously, it cripples him, if he's trolling, it makes it super obvious. It doesn't work either way.

Why do you post as anon? It makes you super obvious you are a tool.

>>374761
>Oh, also, the other reason it's important? The wealthy control the government in this country. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it's a known thing and no one in government even seems to be trying to deny it anymore. The way you get to affect the laws is not by writing to your congressmen or voting for a given candidate anymore, it's by forming lobbying groups and political action committees that can afford to buy the government's loyalty and positive media coverage. You can't do that with basketball player money. You need "I buy and sell businesses for a living" money for your opinion to matter in government.

Actually for the average American, as Chris Hedges pointed out in his book, The Death of the Liberal Class, former presidents, like FDR and LBJ, where influenced by public opinion. However due to the raise of globalism and neo-liberalism in the 1970s American politicians stopped caring about what the American people thought and more about what the corporate plutocrats thought. So the traditional liberal class that puts pressure on presidents to get things done has been shut out of the discussion that is dominated by the corporate oligarchs. While European countries certainly have pro-corporate plutocratic governments, none are as reactionary as the America empire. Remember the red scares and the destruction of the socialist, anarchist, anti-statist Marxist, union movements in America?
>> No. 374772
>>374769
>I think the concept of removing the death penalty is totally retarded)

Why?
>> No. 374773
>>374772
Because there are people in this world who don't fucking deserve to be here. People like Brevik, or that Australian couple who were given 17 years for beating their son to death. The death penalty needs to exist so that these people can be expunged.
>> No. 374774
File 136077965185.png - (332.05KB , 720x480 , ep21-535.png )
374774
>>374773
>Because there are people in this world who don't fucking deserve to be here. People like Brevik, or that Australian couple who were given 17 years for beating their son to death. The death penalty needs to exist so that these people can be expunged.

Historically the death penalty has been used against oppressed minorities/poor.

What about Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nazi Germany, Afghanistan under Taliban, etc. that have the death penalty for homosexuals and other minorities? Do you want us in the same league as those countries?

In the USA, non-white minorities are much much more likely to go on death row than whites. Which seems more fair? Some guy who kills three people getting the death penalty or wallstreet bankers who cause the suffering of millions and get away scot free?

Giving the state the right to kill it's citizens creates a culture of death and changes the morality of the society. In USA, it's perfectly acceptable for people to die without health insurance. It's no surprise the USA also has the death penalty.
>> No. 374775
>>374774
Having the dealth penalty does not mean you are using it for purges, and bankers doing what bankers have always done has nothing to do with the morality or lack thereof of the death penalty.
>> No. 374776
File 136078229349.png - (448.67KB , 720x480 , ep21-539.png )
374776
>>374775
>Having the dealth penalty does not mean you are using it for purges,

The death penalty has historically been used to oppress and spread fear in a population. Homosexuals have been the historic targets for the death penalty. Political opponents of totalitarian regimes are another target. When you give the state the power to kill someone it changes the morality of the society and makes it less democratic and more totalitarian.

>and bankers doing what bankers have always done has nothing to do with the morality or lack thereof of the death penalty.

No. Those bankers are the ones breaking the laws. However our corrupt government allows them to get away with murder. Why? Because "they are to big to fail." We no longer live in a society of law and order anymore.
>> No. 374779
>>374776
>The death penalty has historically been used to oppress and spread fear in a population. Homosexuals have been the historic targets for the death penalty. Political opponents of totalitarian regimes are another target. When you give the state the power to kill someone it changes the morality of the society and makes it less democratic and more totalitarian.
Historically a lot of dumb shit has been done that we don't do anymore. The death penalty these days is basically just for serial killers or to use as a bargaining chip to get killers to give up the body in exchange for having it taken off the table.
>No. Those bankers are the ones breaking the laws. However our corrupt government allows them to get away with murder. Why? Because "they are to big to fail." We no longer live in a society of law and order anymore.
Once again, this is not relevant to the death penalty discussion. I get that you have a big rage boner for bankers, but I'm not talking about bankers.
>> No. 374789
>>374767
No, asshole, I'm not suggesting that people not be able to keep their wealth or redistribution or whatever retarded strawman you're trying to build. Wealth comes about because of opportunity, and from here I am saying the best way to offer equal opportunity (which does not exist right now) is with gradual cultural changes to stop people from seeing one another as "Other." It's not about pulling down the people at the top, it's about making it so the people on the bottom have the same opportunities the people at the top had to reach the heights they have.
>> No. 374790
>>374789
i want to touch your butt in a romantic and gentle fashion
>> No. 374791
>>374789
> Wealth comes about because of opportunity

Right, so when someone's uncle accrued the wealth lifetimes ago, every spawn from that family member gets a gigantic preferential leap forward without working for it and sits on inheritance, and doing the entire good old boys network that keeps that power at the top for an elite few. Your "cultural changes" don't have shit all to do with that bloat, and in your broken brain you think it makes sense for resources to be tied to a few individuals like that. Hilarious!
>> No. 374792
>>374791
As much of a problem as a class of people who are born wealthy with no appreciation of the struggles of the lower classes is, there's no fair way to say that people can't provide for their survivors after their deaths. For starters, it would ruin the whole premise of Breaking Bad.
>> No. 374793
>>374792
It's not about an "appreciation" for what poor folks' have to do or empathy. They sit on everything from a mere birth right, an elite class that doesn't have an obligation to work is socially unproductive. How much human resource gets wasted by obscene wealth? It's not quite in your face like the pyramids or some monument in the middle of the country but all it represents is wasted labor that could have been put to better causes. There's infinitely better pursuits for money than to build mansions, and surplus needs to be directed better than that.

We as human beings like to be selfish pricks, but the whole point of government is to regulate how prickish we can be, and deciding by birth right is a silly way to decide what someone deserves in society. Birth right should be easily crossed out as what the human race doesn't need.

A real taxation on obscene wealth inheritance wouldn't affect most people, as for the elite class, leave enough to live comfortably only. Keep in mind in Walter White's case it's all just sitting in storage.

Anyway in the future IOUs are going to be turned into garbage because people borrow too much, and someone's going to have to get burned, and whoever has the political clout is going to make sure its not theirs.
>> No. 374795
File 136080701993.png - (519.15KB , 720x480 , ep21-544.png )
374795
>>374779
>Historically a lot of dumb shit has been done that we don't do anymore. The death penalty these days is basically just for serial killers or to use as a bargaining chip to get killers to give up the body in exchange for having it taken off the table.
Only in America, Japan, and Singapore. The rest of the developed democracies don't have the death penalty. A lot of countries still have that dumb shit you talked about. People are killed for homosexuality, adultery, witchcraft, political views, etc. in some of these other backwards countries. Belarus, one of the few dictatorships in Europe and it also has the death penalty.

>Once again, this is not relevant to the death penalty discussion. I get that you have a big rage boner for bankers, but I'm not talking about bankers.
Yes it is. Bankers get away scot free with wreaking the world economy and ruin the lies of millions of human beings and yet say a black kid is found smoking weed and he's in jail. See what I'm trying to get at here? Bankers cause millions to suffer and yet they don't get the death penalty for it.
>> No. 374797
>>374795
>Only in America, Japan, and Singapore. The rest of the developed democracies don't have the death penalty.
We're only talking about the developed world here so the rest of that shit is, again, irrelevant.

>Yes it is. Bankers get away scot free with wreaking the world economy and ruin the lies of millions of human beings and yet say a black kid is found smoking weed and he's in jail. See what I'm trying to get at here? Bankers cause millions to suffer and yet they don't get the death penalty for it.
You don't seem interested in actually talking about this, so okay, whatever, you win. Have fun with your avatarfagging I guess.
>> No. 374798
>>374779
>Historically a lot of dumb shit has been done that we don't do anymore. The death penalty these days is basically just for serial killers or to use as a bargaining chip to get killers to give up the body in exchange for having it taken off the table.
That's still the government purging society of its undesirables. You're not saying the government shouldn't have the power to do that, you're just negotiating what traits it is and is not okay for the government to purge citizens for. There are those among us who feel that there are no circumstances in which the government should be able to make that decision.

Also, the death penalty costs taxpayers more money than indefinite imprisonment, often executes people who are later exonerated, and it has been shown through multiple studies that it does not serve as a deterrent to capitol crimes. The only reason we keep it around is to fulfill the lust for revenge that barbarous people feel, which encourages people to continue thinking of barbarous behavior as acceptable.
>> No. 374806
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/nyregion/houses-of-worship-seeking-fema-grants-face-constitutional-barrier.html?_r=1&

http://www.aclu.org/blog/religion-belief/protecting-constitutional-principles-even-after-disasters

An Act has been passed that explicitly permits the use of FEMA grants to religious institutions. This means damages to churches and other buildings used for religious worship dealt by Hurricane Sandy will be paid for by taxpayer dollars.
>> No. 374819
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-insane-solutions-to-americas-biggest-problems_p2/

Cracked, as ussual, the lone light in the darkness.
>> No. 374820
>>374806
I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand--they don't pay taxes, and that means they've contributed nothing to the fund they're drawing from, which is essentially federal Disaster Insurance. On the other hand, they were affected by the disaster too, and are part of disaster relief efforts as much as any other building.

I think what we need to do is--go ahead and implement this as law, but impose a tax on churches that goes only to FEMA. And needless to say, Churches treated the same way as Mosques, Synagogues, Wiccan coven buildings, whatever.

Do Churches have to prove they're involved in Community Outreach or charitable actions to get tax exempt status? If so, I might see my way to accepting them getting FEMA relief without paying taxes, if other charitable organizations get the same treatment.
>> No. 374821
File 136082422115.png - (479.91KB , 720x480 , ep21-545.png )
374821
>>374797
>We're only talking about the developed world here so the rest of that shit is, again, irrelevant.
It is relevant. You can't just ignore places with the death penalty like North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, etc.

>You don't seem interested in actually talking about this, so okay, whatever, you win. Have fun with your avatarfagging I guess.
But I am interested. I'm just trying to show you that big bankers on wallstreet don't get the death penalty for causing the suffering of millions.

>>374820
>On the one hand--they don't pay taxes,
Why do churches not pay taxes in the first place?

>>374819
Best part was when he said that Congress were lazy leeches and we should get rid of them.
>> No. 374825
>>374820
>And needless to say, Churches treated the same way as Mosques, Synagogues, Wiccan coven buildings, whatever.

This is already in the act. All buildings of religious worship are supposed to be treated equally.

>On the other hand, they [...] are part of disaster relief efforts as much as any other building.

Not really. The purpose of a building has a lot to do with how much the government is supposed to help out.

From the ACLU article:
>All nonprofit organizations (including houses of worship) and for-profit businesses can get low-interest, long-term, government-secured loans—up to $2 million—for losses not fully covered by insurance. Direct FEMA grants of taxpayer funds, however, are intended to serve a certain purpose—those grants are for nonprofits with facilities used for emergency, essential, and government-like activities to the community at large.

FEMA isn't meant to pay for every building that got fucked up. The government has no obligation to rebuild a shopping mall, for example, though the owners of that mall can take out a special low interest LOAN from the government available in these situations. Religious institutions had the same access to these loans as all other businesses and non-profit organizations.

The new act allows FEMA to give houses of worship GRANTS, not loans. These are only supposed to be used for things that are considered essential, like hospitals, schools, shelters, public transport, etc. The NYTimes article stated that "churches and synagogues may apply for reimbursement for social services they provided, including homeless shelters, preschools or feeding programs" BEFORE the new act, meaning that any house of worship being used for these things would have been eligible for assistance even then. With this new act, even religious buildings that weren't used for those things (whether due to being closed, or destroyed, or whatever) are being rebuilt or repaired with taxpayer dollars, and are even being put on the same level of necessity as hospitals and schools.

I'm completely against this. It flies in the face of the separation of church and state, and sets a terrible precedent which may allow for further government/church interactions in the future based on the idea that religious buildings are essential enough to a society to warrant government aid.
>> No. 374827
>>374825
Man, unless FEMA's rules have changed since Hurricane Ivan, I know for a fact they'll help out homeowners whose houses get damaged in disasters for which they're mobilized. Our house only got a little roof damage, and they gave us a little assistance for that. They don't pay for the whole thing, but they help.

Or are the rules different for commercial/industrial zoned buildings?
>> No. 374829
>>374827
>Or are the rules different for commercial/industrial zoned buildings?

As far as I'm aware.
>> No. 374837
File 136088072585.png - (394.01KB , 720x480 , ep21-937.png )
374837
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/14/us-usa-gaymarriage-illinois-idUSBRE91D1H020130214

>The Illinois Senate, which is heavily Democratic, voted 34-21 to advance the measure to the House in President Barack Obama's home state. The fate of the bill in the state's lower chamber remains uncertain.
>> No. 374838
>>374837

Illinois Anon here. Been following this.

Now I can marry a man. I'm not gay, but the fact of the matter is I can get married to a man. Good on Illinois.
>> No. 374839
>>374838
Hope you find the right guy.
>> No. 374856
File 136090594326.png - (350.30KB , 720x480 , ep21-930.png )
374856
>>374838
I'm more concerned by the US Supreme Court will rule this June. In my state of Pennsylvania, our legislators are dominated by Republicans who continue the prohibition on marriage equality for LGBT peoples. We need marriage equality in all 50 state. States don't have the right to discriminate against a minority group. We can't live in a land divided between half free and half slave as Lincoln said.
>> No. 374869
File 13609403792.jpg - (48.53KB , 483x600 , Bobby_Jindal_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg )
374869
Why is Bobby Jindal not the face of the Republican party?

Is it because they are hinging the Latino vote on Marco Rubio?
>> No. 374870
>>374869
marco rubio looks "familiar"
>> No. 374873
>>374869

Because all he has ever done is the same regressive shit the entire rest of the party has done, and the only difference is his statements about needing to "rebrand".

It's just the Southern Strategy only on a broader scale. Same as the rest of the GOP.
>> No. 374874
>>374869
Because he tells Republicans in office to not be stupid, and that's one piece of advice that goes against everything the Republican Party stands for.
>> No. 374896
File 136102883897.png - (464.36KB , 720x480 , ep21-546.png )
374896
>>374874
>Because he tells Republicans in office to not be stupid,

Funny because Governor Bobby Jindal is part of the stupid party. He has implemented teaching creationism in his state along with abolishing the income tax which heavily far the rich over the poor.

All of these 2016 GOP candidates are all the same. All of them want austerity, more wars, more corporatism, more wealth redistribution from the bottom 70% and giving that wealth to the top 1% of the population. There is a not a lick of difference between Bobby Jindal, Paul Ryan, Marco Rubio, Bob McDonald, Chris Christie, or Rand Paul. All of them are bigoted neo-cons who are going to rape the country with neo-liberal policies.
>> No. 375015
File 136125139046.jpg - (19.18KB , 640x480 , avatar-the-last-airbender-cartoon-screencap-book-3.jpg )
375015
Dr. Cornel West calls Obama out for his crimes against humanity.

http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/2013/02/18/cornel-west-obama-is-a-%E2%80%98war-criminal%E2%80%99-who-has-killed-%E2%80%98over-200-children%E2%80%9
9/#.USMKXWeD1ZM

Drone strikes, illegal wars, indefinite detention without trail, etc. Let's face it: Obama is WORSE than Bush, even though all of this happened under Bush as well. Do you know why Obama is worse than Bush? Because he puts a nice face to it all, to US imperialism, to corporate greed, and gives it all with that kind of "feel your pain" Clinton like speeches he gives. He's a poster boy for the corporate state.
>> No. 375021
Anonex please kill this thread, or make /pol/ again so we don't have to look at it.
>> No. 375022
>>375021
Just use the hide button.
It's easier.
>> No. 375087
ITT: People spout stuff they read in a chain-mail
>> No. 375287
I'd kind of like to be a politician, I think.. but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I knew the game, inside and out.

I've seen how just not knowing the insides of a car or computer can get you fucked seven ways to sunday by retail prices, schemers, scammers, charlatans and assholes, and if I were in a position of elected power, I'd want none of it. If you don't know how the system you're working with works, you're just a rubber stamp. You aren't adequately equipped to make such decisions for people, because you can't properly discriminate or convey legible thoughts and alternatives to what the salesmen are pitching at you.

I want to know the inside and out of business, government, bureacracy and be able to look up the history and direction of existing, past and future programs, and get some idea of who dwelled in them, and the interrelation between those people. I want to know these things, but I don't know where to start. I don't know any sources of knowledge I can search for that won't bury me in repetitious books by Ann Coulter or some untrustworthy ideological stew from Chomsky. I'm not looking for "you should buy a Macintosh because Macs are better and don't get viruses," I'm looking for dry, factual, technical information that makes no pre-assumptions about the outcomes.

I guess the only way forwards is business school, law and political science.
>> No. 375290
>>375287
No, knowing the game is how they turn you into one of them. You have to go in with full ignorance of how the system works, and force it to conform to your needs instead of the other way around. MAKE THE SYSTEM YOUR BITCH, ANON.
>> No. 375295
>>375290
You become like one of them by seeing only the moving goal posts and being lured by the money. Also having little vision, and without money, little hope.
With proper understanding of the system and engagement of the layman, the way Neil DeGrasse Tysen engages people who aren't astrophysicists with astrophysics, I believe conveying groundbreaking solutions is possible.
>> No. 375350
File 136399454783.jpg - (71.38KB , 720x480 , tumblr_mih7xiiaNH1r7g34go5_1280.jpg )
375350
>>375287
>I'd kind of like to be a politician, I think.. but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I knew the game, inside and out.

You have to raise money. Lots of money. And sell your soul for votes and corporations.

>some untrustworthy ideological stew from Chomsky.

How is he untrustworthy?
>> No. 375351
>>375350

or he can just deal drugs, become a kingpin, sit on it for about a decade or so, and then campaign

also note that not getting caught is the way to success.

also, i think the change starts with the people, not the politicians. we need to let them know what does and does not fly, instead of trying to invade politics, because i feel you'll get corrupted in the process.
>> No. 375475
You're Firelord, aren't you, Rainbow Kid? Either way, you wanna stop constantly using Avatar images while you spout off about politics?
>> No. 375507
File 136429494898.jpg - (304.31KB , 1920x1080 , 1267.jpg )
375507
>>375351
>also, i think the change starts with the people, not the politicians.

So do you support direct democracy?

>we need to let them know what does and does not fly, instead of trying to invade politics,

What if the politicians don't care what we want? Over 90% of Americans support background checks for guns and yet we can't get that passed.

>>375475
>Either way, you wanna stop constantly using Avatar images while you spout off about politics?

What about Korra pics?
>> No. 375511
>>375507
>What about Korra pics?

Still counts, and I'd rather you didn't. It just distracts from your argument, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and makes you look like you're trying to draw attention to yourself.
>> No. 375584
File 13645123361.jpg - (270.37KB , 1920x1080 , 0364.jpg )
375584
Senators Rob Portman (OH), Claire McCaskill (MO), Mark Warner (VA), Jay Rockefeller (WV), Jon Tester (MT), Tim Kaine, and Kay Hagan (NC) have come out for marriage equality. That's amazing. And more is on the way. We need to continue to pressure the nine remanding Democrats to support marriage equality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supporters_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#U.S._Senators

Make sure you guys sign this petition and tell my US senator Bob Casey to support marriage equality:

http://signon.org/sign/tell-sen-casey-to-support
>> No. 375593
>>375511
He's just an avatarfag, don't respond to him anymore. Avatarfagging is the worst behavior.
>> No. 375594
>>375593

I don't agree with everything he says, but I'm not going to treat his posts differently than anyone else's just because he has an image for them. That would be stupid. Stop encouraging 4chan-esque behavior here. He's avatarfagging, but his posts have actual content behind them.
>> No. 375609
>>375593
your statement befuddles me. It's like criticizing a candidate (paul ryan, for instance) on his positions because he says them while wearing high black socks with crocs.
>> No. 375620
>>375609
That seems like a fair criticism of him, if he does it. How can you take someone seriously if their taste is that bad?
>> No. 375624
>>375620

Okay, enough of this nonsense. No one respond to this guy again.

>>>/4chan/
>> No. 375627
Can government programs accept donations and act like a charity in that regard? Like, could I donate to NASA or the Parks Program or Medicare, and then count it as a deduction on my taxes? It seems like if they do, that would be an interesting way for people to show where their priorities really lie for government programs, without Congress fucking us over by cutting the budgets of programs that sane people actually realize the importance of.
>> No. 375631
>>375609
I do not believe he's referring to the show, but rather to RK's insistence of always posting with an image he wishes to associate himself with ie an avatar. It's one of the worst things you can do on an image board really.

Also he's probably Firelord and clearly insane.
>> No. 375635
>>375631
Personally, I don't really see over-using reaction images from a particular source as much of an issue unless either an attempt to lay exclusive claim to it is made or the thread is in danger of easily using up the image limit. Otherwise it just makes you look crazy, which at worst attracts trolls. I guess that could be a problem.

>>375627
I would love if this was the case, on multiple levels of government. Though I'm not sure how tax deductions work, what prevents everyone from donating a bunch to charity at once until there's nothing left for the government, or in this case the parts they don't specifically donate to?

Also, if donating directly to government programs isn't allowed, I think it might be possible to instead make charitable organizations that basically do contract work for the government for either nothing or some arbitrarily small amount required as a formality.
>> No. 375640
>>375631
>It's one of the worst things you can do on an image board really.

Oh, yeah, images on an imageboard. That offense is right up there with shitposting and spamming. Give it a rest, please. He's harmless.

>>375627

An interesting idea, though I've no idea how it would work in practice. There's just something about the plan that's bothering me, personally. And I'm not sure what.
>> No. 375648
>>375635
The way tax deductions work is that you reduce your taxable salary by the amount you donate, or by a certain percent of the amount you donate. It only makes a difference if it moves you into a lower tax bracket that gets taxed at a lower rate.

In other words, it doesn't directly reduce how much you're taxed, but it can do so indirectly if you either donate a lot, or are already right on the cusp of the next lowest tax bracket.
>> No. 375660
>>375640
Well there is the possibility of rich people/corporations putting a bunch of money towards the branches of government you don't think need as much funding due to them disagreeing with you over what's important, and of course if the donations have any effect congress could just use it as an excuse to shift their budget around to compensate, maybe even making things biased against the branches that get donations so they're worse off than before.
>> No. 375661
>>375627
I feel like that might backfire with people putting a lot of money into a program they think is cool while ignoring more practical & necessary ones. I can see Medicare being screwed over badly since so many people believe they shouldn't be paying for other people's medical bills, even though creating a safety net for everyone means one day it will also help them.
>> No. 375704
File 136486754710.gif - (462.38KB , 250x187 , tumblr_mh1hozgYo81rzxujso4_250.gif )
375704
>>375631
>and clearly insane.
Only insane about the truth.

>>375593
>He's just an avatarfag, don't respond to him anymore. Avatarfagging is the worst behavior.

What's wrong with Avataring?

>>375627
>without Congress fucking us over
I found your problem.
>> No. 375705
File 136486790865.jpg - (76.81KB , 400x386 , tumblr_luxa8aeYIG1qjv29ho1_400.jpg )
375705
Well looks like the Moveon.org petition worked.

>Sen. Casey backs same-sex marriage (first US senator from Pennsylvania to do so)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/national-digest/2013/04/01/2a267b26-9b07-11e2-9a79-eb5280c81c63_story.html

>Sen. Robert P. Casey Jr. (D-Pa.) said Monday that he now supports same-sex marriage.

>Having come to believe that the Defense of Marriage Act should be repealed, he decided that he could not take that stance without supporting gay marriage outright, Casey told the Morning Call in an interview.

>Only eight Democratic senators do not support same-sex marriage: Thomas R. Carper (Del.), Joe Donnelly (Ind.), Heidi Heitkamp (N.D.), Tim Johnson (S.D.), Mary Landrieu (La.), Joe Manchin III (W.Va.), Bill Nelson (Fla.) and Mark Pryor (Ark.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supporters_of_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States#U.S._Senators

Does your US senator support same-sex marriage?
>> No. 375716
>>375640
>Oh, yeah, images on an imageboard. That offense is right up there with shitposting and spamming. Give it a rest, please. He's harmless.

>>375704
>What's wrong with Avataring?

It's attentionwhoring and distracting. That's why it's annoying. We're having a discussion about politics here, but it's like you're running around going "Lookit me, lookit me, guys! I'm an Avatar fan! Pay attention to me!!" The pics have nothing to do with the discussion, you're just using them to make your own posts stand out more than anyone else's.

There are people around here who are "avatarfags" (lowercase a, as in "profile image") but that aren't really that annoying, and I think some of them don't always post with their avatars anyway. The practice is more obnoxious on regular 4chan. Chans are imageboards, yes, but they're not forums. If someone really wants a profile picture, name, and signature, that's where they should go.

And this part may be biased, but as an Avatar (capital A) fan, it makes me cringe when obnoxious people run around flaunting their love for the series, as if the fandom needed any more negative attention.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled political debates.

>>375707
>I find it a bit ironic that straight women seem to be more tolerant of gay men than any other group. It's like... they're totally useless to me and yet so supportive. Ugh.

I guess they're not so useless after all, are they? Isn't that kind of offensive to say someone's useless just because you don't find them sexually attractive?
>> No. 375777
Cleaned up the thread a bit, you folks got way too offtopic. Now go back to trolling each other about politics, not about gender stereotypes.
>> No. 375780
>>375777
Wait, seriously? Gender issues could be considered political, especially right now. And it's not like the entire thread was being derailed. I'll accept your decision, but I don't like it.
>> No. 375838
>>375780

Not when some moron is trolling.

>>375705

One of them does, yes.
>> No. 375848
>>374869
I cannot wrap my mind around how his approval ratings are down because he told the republican party to stop being stupid.
>> No. 375853
I think a problem between people of both major parties (it feels like it could be more Republicans doing this, but I could be wrong) is saying "I do not feel like this law should be passed because I will not be affected by it."

For example, a Republican woman who has only ever gotten pregnant when she wanted to become pregnant, had enough money to pay raise her children, and had a supporting husband was complaining that abortion was even a thing on the news.
>> No. 375859
>>375853
Well, no, it's not really that they hate laws that won't affect them. The problem is that they think the laws have a trickle-down affect that WILL end up affecting them indirectly. This actually is kind of true because no one exists in a vacuum--while a law may only target one specific group, every other group still feels the waves--so it's not like there isn't any logic to it.

Republicans tend to get upset about a lot of morality and tradition-related laws because right wingers are big fans of morality and tradition. They are usually angrier about laws that "devalue" or change things because it might fuck up what they see as a balance. Unfortunately republican culture is kind of insulated and most republicans are white middle or upper class so they may not understand (or care) that the balance they have is only good for THEM. If you've lived your entire life as the woman in your example did, surrounded by other people living the same way with little exposure to stories of outgroup members (who are relatable, not just a statistic or a nameless hypothetical) you just don't fucking understand why anyone would turn to abortion. You can only make judgements on something if you know something about it, and in the absence of actual knowledge you just kind of assume that it works similar to your own personal experiences. This woman came to the conclusion that abortion is wrong because she is so ignorant of other situations that she has nothing but herself to compare with.

People leaning to the left are more open to experience, more likely to trust a variety of resources, they don't like tradition, and they like to be more inclusive. Ingroup/outgroup isn't separated by such a hard line. It takes more to get them riled up about a law which may have negative affects on them. Liberals are willing to take personal hits so welfare and medicare can stay up even when they don't really need those safety nets, for instance. Not to say they don't whine and bitch too but their overreactions aren't as loud and they're more prone to splintering & short bursts of outrage. Republican rage stays strong.
>> No. 375860
>>375859
I can see your point. I grew up somewhere between the two, so my feelings are also somewhere in-between.

I don't get along with Republicans very often, because they don't always want to include others in their plans, but sometimes I clash with Liberals, because I've met Liberals who think I should believe in every core Liberal belief. Both parties are guilty of No True Scotsman.
>> No. 375880
>>375860
That's because the Two Party System just doesn't work for creating groups that genuinely represent their constituents. There are a lot of Democrats who are essentially Republicans, and only run as and vote democrats because the Republican Party has been co-opted by the Tea Party and/or Religious Right. And there are a lot of Republicans who are essentially Democrats, but run as and vote Republican because they feel like some aspect of the Republican Party is more precious to them than the rest of the stuff that make up their actual beliefs.

All this means that there's no place for a lot of different political ideologies other than getting in bed with a lot of people whose politics really are basically incompatible with theirs. I tend to vote democrat because the Republicans actively terrify me and the Democrats only make me nervous But I don't consider myself a Democrat--the Democrats are actually too conservative for my tastes, and I especially hate how quickly Democrats cave to pressures from Hollywood (or really, how quickly they cave to any other sort of pressure).

This is the danger that comes about from having only two parties to represent the entirety of Americans' interests. There is no party for people who want to see meaningful copyright reform. There is no party for people who want to reduce the power of money on politics. There is no party for people who want honest-to-goodness socialized medicine, or a significant reduction in military spending, or to make good faith efforts to increase government transparency, or to just straight up say "I don't care how many terrorists you stop by doing it, it is unacceptable for America to employ assassination, secret police, or domestic spying as a political tool. We prefer fear of terrorists over fear of our own government."
>> No. 375929
>>375880
I think it's a problem bigger than politics, even. I've had trouble with even small groups trying to come to a consensus on anything, even on topics other than politics. So I don't know how political parties do it. I remember hearing that most people were socially Liberal, fiscally Conservative. So it's not just us.
>> No. 375942
>>375880
I've heard that, because there are usually more people who hold right wing values in a population and right wing leaders are more common, there's a gradual shift towards conservatism over time in governments. There is also a "circling the wagons" hypothesis that explains why we are more likely to elect people who believe more strongly in hierarchy and Protecting the Motherland's current people and values during wartime. These things are exemplified in the current United States government where you have a Democrat leader who is really quite centrist/lightly conservative in his ideals, not liberal, and the Republican opposition who are at times verging on radical conservatism.

Over here in Canada we have a similar situation. Our so-called Liberal party is more or less centrist nowadays--the true liberal party is the NDP. For the first time in a really, really long time we have a conservative government with an actually liberal opposition, but I don't expect that to last. The thing with a multi-party system is that there really just ends up being two main duelling parties anyway, a left-leaning one and a right-leaning one, with a third that is always maintains a presence but never actually wins. You can vote for a smaller party, like the Green party, but it is usually the same as not voting at all because it will virtually always be the Liberal or Conservative candidate who wins. The NDP becoming the opposition was pretty much the result of a massive number of people "throwing" their vote to the third option because we hated both Harper and Ignatieff, though (same with the Green Party winning that one seat in the election before that), so it does work on occasion, but it's RARE and does not last long. People voting for loser parties out of contempt is why we don't have the noble Rhinoceros Party anymore (they got too many votes and offended the big guys, so they were forced to dissolve).

I think multi-party is probably better than two-party because it allows the introduction of new, more liberal parties as the older ones crawl towards the right end of the political spectrum. The States has a harder time renewing theirs. As far as representation of interests go, it's not very different between Canadian and American government, there will always be two main parties who will always be doing shit you hate. It's still better to vote for the lesser of three evils than to throw it away on some nobody party.

Also the dictonomy of a two-party system might create more of a divide between voters. I mean, you guys just care a whole lot more about the parties themselves & allegiance to them--you talk politics differently than countries with multi-party systems. It's subtle but it's definitely there. I'm not really sure if that difference is due to the set-up or other completely unrelated cultural factors, it is just something I've noticed and haven't bothered to look into (I can cite studies for everything else in this post but not this).
>> No. 375948
>>375942
Technically we can do multiple parties in the US but the fringe parties end up being nutters by and large and most rational vote has to go to the democrats just to prevent the republicans from horribly screwing it up for the rest of us.

It really is frustrating because there's a huge split in this country over the propaganda machine that the republican party has become. It's very hard to discuss real issues when we still have to tell half our country that homosexuals aren't all bad, muslims aren't all terrorists, and that tradition does not really address problems we are seeing emerge for the first time in world history, such as overpopulation, climate change, and resource dwindling.

It's really quite like a significant portion of our population taking the Daily Mail as gospel, to use a UK equivalent. So much of the political discourse is not discourse but rather damage control of erroneous facts. Even the people who do not represent the republican party as a whole, and only enjoy 1 or 2 aspects of it, are called into question simply because so much outright incorrect info has filtered down those channels. A portion of our population is trying to argue about the future of copyright frameworks and how they are used, but a different section is still getting hung up over gay marriage. The discrepancy makes it difficult to talk about issues when what your info sources are based solely on a single news channel.
>> No. 375964
I'm a feminist. I want to make as much money as a guy who is doing the same job as me and doing an equal amount of work. I don't want other women to be subjected to random guys, complete strangers, walking up and stroking their boobs and thighs and trying to justify it. I don't like being given an option between only pink and a different shade of pink. I want to be able to talk without being told "you're a woman, so your opinion doesn't matter".

I do not think men deserve to be raped. I do not think men deserve to be put in harm's way. I'm sick of constantly being told that feminists can't care about guys or about groups that don't involve gender, for that matter. Nobody deserves to be molested or raped or beaten for any reason.
>> No. 375968
>>375948
I don't think the Republican Party as it is now can sustain itself for long, and it will eventually have to splinter into the moderate conservatives and the batshit insane. Hopefully the second group will lose its voice and power when that happens, but honestly I am a bit scared that it won't. The religious right in the US is honestly frightening and I worry that the mentality will linger for a long time after the Republican party itself implodes.

>>375964
It's so hard to have a conversation about feminism without some guy saying that it is not actually about gender equality at all, and that it unfairly ignores men. There is a whole section of feminist theory that deals with how sexism against women backfires on men and how women themselves can enforce sexism despite being the primary targets. It absolutely does not ignore other genders. They just get hung up on the fucking name and make up all this shit about it in their heads that is not true. Same with "patriarchy"--people who don't get feminism seem to think of it as a group of high-ranking dudes who enforce sexism when it is much more abstract and doesn't refer to any specific group of people; it is a values system that both men and women perpetuate. All men are part of the patriarchy, and so are all women, because we live in a partiarchal society you dipshits.

Sometimes I think it would be better if we just changed these terms to make it more accessible to the general public, who seem to misinterpret them a lot because the words evoke the wrong images in their minds. We really do have an accessibility issue here, since most feminist dialogue is very academic in nature and the eyes of laymen just gloss over during it; if you hope to change anything for real you can't just debate with people who already understand the basics, you have to take it to the masses and teach it to them. Which is apparently hard to do with the jargon we've built up over the years. On the other hand, I realise that there is a lot of resistance to "feminism" because people are actually still afraid of giving women power, so in its own way the word itself is proving that we still need this movement every time somebody complains about why it isn't called "equalism" or some shit if it's REALLY about equal rights. And I don't think we should have to cowtow to men who dislike feminism because it doesn't sound like it caters directly to them. There are times when compromise is needed but I don't think this is one of them lmao.
>> No. 375971
>>375968

I don't agree with that idea. People need to be educated. Changing the name isn't going to work in the long term. People will associate whatever new term with their old misconception of feminism.

I'd rather people just actually read some actual feminist discourse (stuff actually taught in universities by people who know what they're talking, not shit found on the internet, including both straw feminists and dipshit MRAs)
>> No. 375975
>>375971
It'd be nice if everyone had access to university level discourse, had motivation to seek it out and the means to understand it, but they don't. The fact that most of the actual discussion is happening in academia makes it impenetrable to a lot of people. The result is ignorance and resistance stemming from that ignorance. It's becoming increasingly clear and painful to me that only a small subset of the population really knows any truths about important social and environmental issues, because they've studied it in university, and the others are at best misinformed. Scientists are kind of prone to forgetting laymen don't often come adequately pre-equipped with knowledge of the subject. And if the jargon is confusing to them, that's a problem. It's just a gigantic waste of time to have to redefine a word to somebody with a faulty definition and play the semantics game.

But yes, changing the words won't work long-term. I don't like the state of things as they are now because it makes it hard to educate them, and I hope things will change eventually, but it is frustrating and sad and I don't know how to make it more palatable and accessible. A lot of what IS out there for the plebs is saccharine, shallow, or deals mainly with rape, and the target audience is usually other women (except in the "dissolve rape culture" campaigns like Slutwalk, which is for everyone). The presentation of the movement does need improvement but I'm just not sure how to do it without sacrificing any integrity. Internet radfems and Baby's First Feminist Blogs are not helping. (In case I wasn't clear--I'm not sure if I was--I am not suggesting we should be sacrificing integrity because we shouldn't.)
>> No. 375977
>>375971
This. Feminism (and whatever the male equivalent is) suffers from underexposure and a lack of critical thought on the part of the most vocal for either side. One of the most underrepresented aspects of modern Feminism is that it is very much politics of the bedroom, such that they are trying to discuss living with men, as most women do actually enjoy men as sexual partners. The discussion of balance and of understanding is a good one because so much of accepted culture is based on dominating someone. In just about every aspect of contemporary culture, the language is of dominance; the man "earns" the woman by being the best breadwinner, by being the most sociable, by having the largest broadly defined sex appeal. Agency is never given to the woman. That she has a choice in the matter is a point almost never made or respected. There is a certain level of dominance and submission that goes into every relationship, but that doesn't mean each can't come from both sides.

But that point is ignored by the armchair feminists and the MRAs. And the claim they stake in these affairs are often personal; the rape victim, the loveless loser, the disaffected worker, the "Alpha Male". Their adherence isn't to expanding free agency for women or improving male-female relations, it's often to their own agenda, which would be shaped by their life's events.

What I find particularly disturbing are the people who have taken to actively attacking women over social networking. If you ask me if I'm a mens rights activist, I'd say the notion is ridiculous; of course I have a vested self-interest in the rights of my gender. Who wouldn't? But that doesn't mean that my rights should necessarily infringe upon other genders, and vice versa. And I mean, I don't give a fuck about like, say, Felicia Day's work, but I can't knock the hustle. I'm not going to sit there and write death threats and verbal slander off someone's attempt to make money with a product they think other people might like. Some people juggle geese, no need to start shit.
>> No. 375979
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375979
>South Dakota Sen. Tim Johnson announces support for same-sex marriage

http://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/south-dakota-sen-tim-johnson-announces-support-for-same-sex/article_2aba0e1a-a078-11e2-8018-0019bb2
963f4.html

That makes 54 US senators supporting marriage equality with 50 of them being Democrats, 2 independents, and 2 Republicans.

Only three traitors left:

* Mary Landrieu of Louisiana (running for reelection in 2014)
* Mark Pryor of Arkansans (running for reelection in 2014)
* Joe Manchin of West Virginia (running for reelection in 2018)
>> No. 375984
>>375975

We need a Kahn Academy Equivalent for the humanities. Hell, if we have pop scientists who can express complex scientific thoughts for laypeople, maybe we need to find someone who can do that for the non-sciences.

Also, there are people who attend college who still have these ass-backwards ideas about women.

And yeah, using some simpler terminology could help a ton. I'm of the linguistic mindset of "the simpler, the better, as long as we keep the original, intended meaning"

>>375977

This is one of the reasons I shrink away when nerd culture comes up. It'd be nice if we (generally on the whole) stopped acting like giant manbabies.

>Some people juggle geese, no need to start shit.

I'm stealing this sentence for personal use.
>> No. 375985
>>375984
We have those people. The problem is, unlike Science where the pop educators are usually respected people in their field and teach stuff that is up to date, and most of all, emphasize scientific METHOD above scientific fact.

We've got turd burglars like Jared Diamond and Niall Fergeson who present information decades out of place, ignore complexities, and when they get called out on being wrong, defend themselves on the ground that their target audience is too stupid to understand the complexities.
>> No. 375990
I don't think "Men's Rights Advocacy" or whatever will ever be taken seriously. The well has been so polluted by people like you-know-who and those whiny passive aggressive misogynistic types, I don't think it's possible to have a group that doesn't weeble-wobble either voluntarily into a disenfranchised pride/power/hate group, or be pushed in that direction by people with a vested interest in not fixing these legitimate inadequacies in society.

Even deciding what is sexist against the male sex is a point of contention. Topics like male circumcision, we all have probably witnessed, go nowhere. They're the kinds of "oh god not this again" where tradition meets physical practicality meets finding something to be pissed off about that ultimately goes nowhere and changes nothing, because some will argue it's not sexist, others will argue it's a legitimate if sexually dimorphic religious or cultural tradition, and others who think "it's not sexist because foreskins are so iiickyyyyy *giggle*."

It's bad enough, I don't think it will ever be given legitimacy as a civil problem or a perspective unless or until feminists co-opt the movement. It'll only be as legitimate or progressive as feminism determines it should be, and even then it will always be a lower priority if a man's right conflicts with a perceived female right. Because it will never be seen as a legitimate group that isn't just a hatemongering, delusional old boys club shoehorning in interest without feminist approval, it'll always be what is determined acceptable behavior for a man, by women, and what a man is entitled to, through the perspective of a feminist. That causes its own problems, existing only as what the lens of feminism believes is a man's right, but it's probably as close as we'll get to redress of male issues. Nobody else who cares has any moral weight.
>> No. 375997
THE FUTURE IS NOW

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/09/world/navy-deploying-laser-weapon-prototype-in-persian-gulf.html?_r=0

THE FUTURE IS NOW
THE FUTURE IS NOW
THE FUTURE IS NOW
>> No. 375998
>>375977
>suffers from . . . a lack of critical thought on the part of the most vocal for either side

I'm trying to think of a subject this sentence doesn't apply to.

I can't.

>the loveless loser

Part of why I usually abstain from feminist discourse is because I'm that, and I recognize how biased I'd probably be in a discussion. Also because I'm uneducated! But maybe we can do something about that last part, specifically...

>the man "earns" the woman by being the best breadwinner, by being the most sociable, by having the largest broadly defined sex appeal. Agency is never given to the woman. That she has a choice in the matter is a point almost never made or respected.

I find this interesting, would you mind referring me to a resource that goes more in depth on this point particularly, if you happen to know of one off-hand? A sociology study, or something?
>> No. 376022
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376022
>>375998
Don't really have a good one specifically dealing with the literature but cracked actually has a pretty good breakdown:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html

"We were told this by every movie, TV show, novel, comic book, video game and song we encountered. When the Karate Kid wins the tournament, his prize is a trophy and Elisabeth Shue. Neo saves the world and is awarded Trinity. Marty McFly gets his dream girl, John McClane gets his ex-wife back, Keanu "Speed" Reeves gets Sandra Bullock, Shia LaBeouf gets Megan Fox in Transformers, Iron Man gets Pepper Potts, the hero in Avatar gets the hottest Na'vi, Shrek gets Fiona, Bill Murray gets Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters, Frodo gets Sam, WALL-E gets EVE ... and so on."

"In each case, the woman has no say in this -- compatibility doesn't matter, prior relationships don't matter, nothing else factors in. If the hero accomplishes his goals, he is awarded his favorite female. Yes, there will be dialogue that maybe makes it sound like the woman is having doubts, and she will make noises like she is making the decision on her own. But we, as the audience, know that in the end the hero will "get the girl," just as we know that at the end of the month we're going to "get our paycheck." Failure to award either is breaking a societal contract. The girl can say what she wants, but we all know that at the end, she will wind up with the hero, whether she knows it or not."

Very rarely do you get good stories about independent women. Usually it's something like Anita "Sleep with everything to Win" Blake.
>> No. 376027
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376027
>>376022
>dat article
>> No. 376028
>>376027
Do you disagree with its points, or dislike the way it was explained?
>> No. 376030
>>376022
>Frodo gets Sam
Okay, I chortled.
>> No. 376031
>>376028
I don't think I can respond to this without tl;dr.
>> No. 376032
>>376031

How is this any different from most of your posts? I don't say that as a negative, just as you're kinda wordy and most of us aren't going to have an issue reading it.

Those who do have an issue with reading can just abstain from posting.
>> No. 376033
>>376031
IDK I posted it because I do identify with the majority of the article, and I feel like the disconnects it talks about were a big part of a lot of my relationship problems. I don't like that it doesn't really offer solutions or anything, but as a person with a penis that hasn't really gone down since I was 10, a lot of what it's saying makes sense to me.
>> No. 376038
>>376032
well okay. Here come dem thoughts.
Firstly, the article is absurd. It does address actual issues and topics and delivers a perspective, but it's also done wearing clown pants, happy face paint and honking its own nose. Simultaneously biting satire, and "this is my inflammatory opinion." I (nor anyone else) can really try to "refute" the assertions without seeming like a tryhard, because it's all a joke. Unfortunately, these things kinda perpetuate this way. As we all might believe, casually telling "haha homosexual" jokes to make light and fun at the expense of homosexuals by crudely calling them all sexual predators might be funny, but that sentiment in the wrong person leads to truism and "it's common sense." So.. at some point you do have to kind of try and pick apart things like this that perpetuate bad ideas. Also by no means am I shaking a finger at the person to post it or anything. This is about the contents of the article only.

Secondly, the sperging.
>5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women
It starts off coming from a position that assumes men are trained to hate women. This assumes intention, this assumes conspiracy. Who is doing the training isn't specified, but since women are the victim, logic would dictate it's the male sex or compliant women. If asked who is doing the training, you might get back, "Ohhhh, the patriarchy." A concept of a system that elevates males and denigrates females. No particular sex or gender is technically at the helm except we all know, it's men in congress, the senate, and business/finance and it's assumed women are also part of the reinforcement of this particular system of social dominance.
>#5. We Were Told That Society Owed Us a Hot Girl
No, we weren't. There are some men that walk around acting like this. There are some women who've convinced themselves that men think this way, and because "most men" must think this way, their boyfriends or male acquaintances must feel this way. Especially when they feel like getting emotional and starting a shouting match, where all those insecurities come pouring out and accusations are made based on the persons insecurity. We really are not taught or even perceive some sort of lesson that just existing makes us entitled to a female. Not mature, sane men.
>#4. We're Trained from Birth to See You as Decoration
I take less issue with the implication that society trains men to see women as decorations, so much as they -exclusively- visor this issue as the result of a male dominated society exploiting and directing the poor females. The narrative here is that the male operated machine is treating women like cattle. That everything from the celebrity culture, to women's magazines, to beauty products, to all the minutia ways that society strips women of their security and dignity if they let it dig in, suddenly becomes the result of a cackling white bearded grandpa while he passes laws to get rid of abortion.
Women train women from birth to see women as decoration. Women train themselves from birth to see women as decoration. Women train boys from birth to see women as decorative flowers and themselves as the pots to hold them in securely. Groups of women enforce other groups of women and compete to get other women to keep up with the Ms. Joneses, with cosmetic surgery, new fashions, new diets, new stuff. Why is it suddenly a crime or a sign of male hate of women, if as men they're TAUGHT they're supposed to do things to compliment the narrative women see for themselves!? And that's only if you subscribe to the white picket fence and other nonsensical stereotypes of expectations, which are all optional in the first place.
Do any straight guys feel anything but disgust when television channels waste valuable air time talking about how much new cellulite an aging Britney Spears' ass has developed!? Speculation on drama in a celebrity's home life? It's not men as a sex that're buying and reinforcing the expectations or stupid shit in E! Magazine. Your peers do not care about this pedantic shit. Only women care about this shit, and it'd exist in a matriarchy too, I assure you.
>#3. We Think You're Conspiring With Our Boners to Ruin Us
The idea here is that some guy got an erection once and suddenly blamed the short skirt in the crowd for messing up his hole in 1, way back in the town of Bedrock. So the male sex continuously tries to control the female sex through clothing, body shame and manipulating men who are by nature driven to pursue sex when we can get it. The fear of exploitation and being manipulated and the ease at which it can happen drives the violence, paranoia and feels against women, and according to the narrative, is one of the drives of The Patriarchy, to which all men are part of, willing or non.
>#2. We Feel Like Manhood Was Stolen from Us at Some Point
The assertion is that we do stupid shit because we're blaming women for stealing from us. It's a subconscious, psychological need, because of insecurity. I'm afraid this is both self-flattering to women who make the assertion because it claims men believe women have this power, and patronizing because, oh, clearly everything we do is because we just want women so much. We're just sooo afraid that some strong independent woman might pop up and show us old junior boys clubs members how it's done, and it just must burn our butts that they're in any positions of authority. Surely, it must just stick in our craws, how far women have come. So jealous, are we. THAT must be the motivation for why we chuckle at commercials of big bearded men punching bears and eating raw bass from a stream, or whatever. We miss the good ole days when women were in the kitchen and everybody could be Dirty Harry. It's because we're afraid of women in control, clearly. Maybe we just really fucking love tall tales and the fantastic.
>#1. We Feel Powerless
All of society and all of civilization and all of everything revolves around the female sex, didn't you know? And like a big dog that has imagined itself the true master in the relationship with its human owner, we've seized control of the house. We've made the master live in the dog house, and we wear human clothes, pretend to be the one in control in the relationship, because in our hearts we know we're really just compliant beasts of burden and this society is backasswards to how it SHOULD be, out of our own aggressive hubris. All of society and all of every man's drive for progress and moving up in society. It's all done for women. Cars? Just an extension of our penises. We just can't handle the idea of a strong independent black woman, who don't need no man! So we make her need a man by making it a law or a policy. Clearly that's why we're trained and taught to take our aggression out on women.
Because heaven forbid a man have a reason for anything that has nothing to do with women, domination and subjugation of women, or for women.

A friend of the family confided in me once that she believed the reason men hated changing infant's diapers so much is because we're somehow jealous women can be pregnant and we can't. Why? Because she had a MtF friend who confessed this very envy. She then attributed this to what must be going on in other men's heads, as it fed positively into her world view. This is just an anecdote, but it's inspiring enough to call bullshit on something when I see it and just maybe some gullible fool who needs something spelled out might know better. This is how I try and deal with that kind of stupid.
>> No. 376045
>>376038
>This assumes intention, this assumes conspiracy.
No it doesn't. People don't have to go out of their way to teach hate. That's....like half the point of all modern anti-racism and anti-sexism efforts, really. If you think that you have to be trying to spread hate, then you would have to say racism is also solved in the US, because pretty much no one is going out of their way to teach their kids to hate people who are different.

I'm not going to point-by-point argue all your complaints with the article, but I did want to respond to your criticism of #5 because it seemed to completely miss the point. Movies and television do push the idea that a person's "reward" for being a hero or being in the right is that a hot girl will be granted to him. This is undeniably an underlying (if unintentional) moral present in the majority of stories with a male protagonist that make it into moving pictures or literature.

It's the entire origin of the insidious "Nice Guy" subculture, and part of why misogyny and MRAs in nerd circles have become so rampant and difficult to deal with. Everything we watched growing up taught us to believe that being the Nice Guy and Doing the Right Thing meant we deserved sex, and that quality mates would just fall into our laps (literally), and much of the endless bitching from nerds about how terrible women are is because they feel like they've been betrayed by them since they had the audacity to prefer men who actually put in the effort to be attractive and fun to be around.
>> No. 376046
>>376038
I do agree women are very vicious towards other women. Any woman who's been in a high school bathroom probably knows just how much. Whether it's because they assume men have super high standards, because they've known men who DO have super high standards, or because they assume every girl in school is competing for the same guy they're attracted to, and they need to convince the other girls that they shouldn't even try to ask anyone out, because they're too fat, or ugly, or whatever. I don't know whether this is a result of the patriarchy, or of advertising, possibly mild homophobia (generally assuming all girls are straight), or just insecurity. Or not realizing not everyone's attracted to the same people. Although I've heard guys do some of this to other guys, too.

I should mention why the sexism argument first came up. On another site, other people were saying that Anita Sarkeesian didn't have a right to even offer her opinion on sexism in games. I said she did, and that there were dodgy representations of women in some games. Two commenters responded, one that said video games aren't meant to be taken seriously and that people who critique them need to stop playing. The other went on a tirade about how only men are mistreated and how feminists only care about themselves and they don't care if men get raped or mistreated at work, and it really irritated me.

>>376045
That's why I wish culture would re-adopt "unrequited love" to replace "friendzoned". It doesn't make the person saying no out to look like an asshole, and puts all the emphasis on the one with the crush.
>> No. 376047
>>376046
> Whether it's because they assume men have super high standards, because they've known men who DO have super high standards, or because they assume every girl in school is competing for the same guy they're attracted to, and they need to convince the other girls that they shouldn't even try to ask anyone out, because they're too fat, or ugly, or whatever

It's not any of those things. Girl-on-girl bullying doesn't have anything to do with men. Girls are cruel to other girls for the same reasons anyone is cruel to anybody: the victim annoys them, doesn't fit in, is a jerk themselves, etc. I guess sometimes it might be a case of "you stole my boyfriend you dirty whore" but that's not NEARLY as common as movies and whatnot would have you believe. They will use insults targeting a girl's sexuality or her looks because it's a simple, easy way to smear someone's name and make them feel awful about themselves, and they work better on women than men because of patriarchy etc. but they are just used because they hurt. It's not used to convince anyone but Stephanie herself that she is a fat bitch who should just commit suicide because nobody likes her. And the standards they are holding this poor girl to ARE THEIR OWN. They're not making assumptions about what boys like.

It's actually really funny that you immediately went to "they must be fighting about guys/for guys" and didn't list a single reason unrelated to mating competition.

Sources: i am a girl who was in peer groups full of girls in high school i know how this stuff works
>> No. 376049
>>376046

This. It's tragic and poetic, and implies "yes, she broke my heart without even knowing it, but I'll love that person forever!" rather than "bitch doesn't want my dick!"

>>375990

The problem is that the men's rights movement isn't about equality. It doesn't say "Ok ladies, we admit you're not equal in our society, and we should change it, but gender roles and double standards hurt us as well, so how about we all work together to achieve full legal and social equality and totally gender-blind society". It says "women are bitches who steal our money and children, it's easier being a chick than a dude, fuck them".

>>375997

I'm really not sure if I'm loving or hating the geo-political goings on of this year.
>> No. 376050
>>376046

This. It's tragic and poetic, and implies "yes, she broke my heart without even knowing it, but I'll love that person forever!" rather than "bitch doesn't want my dick!"

>>375990

The problem is that the men's rights movement isn't about equality. It doesn't say "Ok ladies, we admit you're not equal in our society, and we should change it, but gender roles and double standards hurt us as well, so how about we all work together to achieve full legal and social equality and totally gender-blind society". It says "women are bitches who steal our money and children, it's easier being a chick than a dude, fuck them".

>>375997

I'm really not sure if I'm loving or hating the geo-political goings on of this year.
>> No. 376051
>>376047
I was bullied in high school, mostly by girls. That was why they told me they hated me, they insisted I had slept with their boyfriends, all of whom I had never met. They convinced some of the more relentless boys either that I was a whore or a lesbian or that I'd never be able to get anyone to be attracted to me (it was inconsistent). There was a lot of guys calling me fat, ugly, making religious slurs, etc. but the girls' teasing was more specific. That's all. I apologize if I jumped to conclusions.
>> No. 376052
>>376049
>The problem is that the men's rights movement isn't about equality.
2nding this. It's reactionary and angry and mostly pointless in most of the regards it tries to champion. There are perhaps certain concessions that could be made but these are by and large outliers at the moment, not really endemic problems like women or non-whites still face.

I just can't help but feel that a lot of the public, visible anger we're seeing is in part based around these perceptions in the cracked article. These ideas ultimately hurt you, I feel, but in the short run they can be used to help a lot of men, and they are, and that's why there can be such opposition to this. To see a woman excel a man in a field is contrary to this "manifest destiny" idea concerning vaginas. But a lot of men got to where they are because that idea gave them the confidence they needed to succeed. That these concepts may be erroneous is a challenge to the ideas that first put them on top.

>>376047
Thank you for pointing this out. The notion that women are necessarily bitches to other women solely to impress men is exactly the issue. Sometimes, people are just horrible to each other. Sometimes there is a kind of "Queen Bee Syndrome" going on, but "Alpha Male" shit goes on all the time in male circles. What's really at play is the self-confidence of the people doing the bullying.
>> No. 376057
>>376049
The same way feminism is about hating men. Which is to say, feminism is not about hating men at all, but some people have a very high invested interest in forwarding that point of view and trying to make it the public consensus. The very concept of men's rights and any sort of organized group to research, specify and legitimize where men are getting shortchanged in society is kicked totally to the curb by the fact the ones people are paying attention to in the Men's Rights Movement are exactly the sorts of people that, were they given a feminist equivalent, would have no legitimacy outside the outliers of college and social justice blogs and tumblr. So the impression then becomes, "men's rights advocates are all Nice Guys and misognistic victim card playing manchildren." The very definition of men's rights becomes something completely and utterly devoid of legitimacy and meaning and gets replaced with shit. The only group advancing talk about it that gets a spotlight or consideration are the squealing idiots. If we treated feminism this way, we'd be dismissing every legitimate grievance because of how insufferable a few of them are. The insufferability of some would lead to the disregarding of the rest of them. Even now, people are being trained to associate the idea of Men's Rights with horrible things.

There are fifteen men rotting in prison in the US for every one woman. Fifteen. Try and imagine if the apathy would be the same if these numbers were reversed. You can't, because nobody would let that fly. I don't care if most of them are drug related nonviolent offenses. Nobody would DARE make the argument "well, it must be that women are more predisposed to break the law and get caught" if these numbers were reversed, because while on paper equality tries to assert men and women are equal, presumptions of the guilt of men and the innocence of women still infest society. Anybody who tried to argue that, were it fifteen women per every male offender, would be put in the same category as the "legitimate rape" guy for being such a troglodyte. And yet, it's perfectly acceptable to think it of men.

>>376052
But these ideas assert things that are factually wrong and are based purely on nonsense. They're more convenient when you need a scapegoat that will let you blame the actions of Christian Weston Chandler on media, video games and comic books, but to suddenly say, "The girlfriend in Karate Kid is an example of a female trophy being handed to a male protagonist" is mental gymnastics at best. Simple control of a narrative to trade power to whoever is narrating. It helps nobody but the narrator forwarding this point of view and holding large swaths of people responsible for it. It amounts to mass make believe to pretend everybody acting it will make the problem go away.
>> No. 376058
>>376057

I don't think anyone is disregarding actual fucked up things happening to men. People are disregarding MRAs specifically.

As far as I know, the whole MRA thing (and by this, I don't mean people with legitimate grievances, I'm talking about people who congregate on the internet) is reactionary as hell.

>"The girlfriend in Karate Kid is an example of a female trophy being handed to a male protagonist" is mental gymnastics at best.

Wha? No, not really. That's not even a stretch. It's what happened in the movie. And that's pretty much how it happened in all those listed cheesy examples.
>> No. 376059
>>376057
The very fact that you don't see a problem with it is a big part of why it's a problem. It has been so indoctrinated into you that the romantic plotlines used in popular media is not insulting that you won't even approach the idea that maybe it's a little messed up that women in popular culture stories that aren't aimed directly at women often serve no other purpose than as a prize to reward virtuous men with. When it's so far spread that even something as innocuous and story-lite as Donkey Kong uses that plot as more or less its entire plot, that's a problem. You don't want to see it as a problem because acknowledging that it's a problem makes you complicit in a culture that is incapable of granting women equal freedoms to men--and that's exactly why it's as big a problem as it is. The forms of disenfranchisement that are up front and in your face are relatively easy to fight, because their ugliness is inherently obvious to anyone with any empathy. The things that affect us on a subtler level are harder to fight. When it's possible to ignore something and pretend it doesn't exist, the privileged will do so more often than not, without any actual malice intended.

Self-centeredness is probably the cause of more evil than any form of malice ever could be.
>> No. 376061
>>376059
>you don't see the sin because you are a sinner.
I reject the notion that anybody actually gets their relationship expectations from Donkey Kong.
>> No. 376063
>>376061
Yeah, who ever imagined kids getting their values from stupid little stories with no real literary cred. Next thing you know people will say fairy tales were about instilling moral lessons or that racist jokes perpetuate racism or something.
>> No. 376065
>>376063
All I'm saying is my first response to seeing a gorilla in a zoo isn't to look for a mallet to hit it with, or jump on the back of a land tortoise and kick it across the park. So, at least my straight caucasian male privilege can add "animal cruelty" to the list of social messages I must've just shrugged off. And I'm fairly sure even as a very young child, I wasn't picking up social messages about the gender role of women as the "prize" sex because Mario was trying to rescue her. Conflating whimsy with aesop is also a really bad place to be in.
>> No. 376067
>>376065
The point is that no individual story would have the power to shape your subconscious. I used Donkey Kong as an example because it's such a small and trifling thing, and there are zillions of other examples of that exact same story being used elsewhere. The thing that affects subconscious beliefs is not an Effective Argument from a single work of fiction or rhetoric that convinces you to believe what it's espousing. It's comfort and familiarity. If Donkey Kong were the only thing that had that story, then you're absolutely right--it would never in a million years give people the idea that women were owed to heroes.

But when the majority of stories that have any form of romantic subplot at all repeat the idea that the Heroic and Virtuous Male gets the best mate more or less as an afterthought because he's Worthy, the idea becomes more and more comfortable every time you see it. That's where the expectation comes from--pattern recognition. "Every time a guy behaves the way I am behaving now, the girl he's got a crush on ends up reciprocating in the end. So if I keep acting this way, GIRL X will finally notice me!"

Focusing on the fact that I mentioned Donkey Kong as an example of the ubiquitousness of the plotline is missing the forest for the trees.
>> No. 376068
>>376051
Again: this is a tried, tested and true method of ostracizing someone you don't like from a social group. It doesn't matter of those things are true--they weren't, and your tormentors probably knew that and just didn't care--because the act of saying them has the desired effect of getting you to screw off. Vicious rumours start circulating out of malice, and are often calculated, willful lies or assumptions (as in, "well I hate her and she wears baggy clothes and doesn't have a boyfriend so she must be a dyke") aimed specifically at what they think will hurt you the most. Bullying is all about power no matter what gender the perpetrators are; the difference is in the methods, not the reasons. Male bullies tend to get physical more often while females go for subterfuge & social alienation.

And it's certainly never to impress dudes. If anything it's actually to impress the other girls, make them see her as the head bitch, someone to defer to, not to fuck with. This kind of behaviour is most often seen in people who are not naturally dominant and in people who are scared that their social status is slipping; the victims are easy submissive targets (in the first type) and potential threats (in the second). I don't know about you personally but I've never felt sexually attracted to a guy who I saw verbally abusing and pushing around another smaller kid. I'm fairly sure it's not normal to think it's sexy. It's not meant to be hot, because it's not a mating display, it's establishing social dominance. Likewise most dudes probably don't find the rumour mill and catty behaviour alluring.

There is the matter of alphas generally getting the most mating options and, because they're the boss, there's less competitors who'll try to steal mates away. But that is more or less a perk of being the alpha. Buck deer for instance don't spar to show off to does; there might not even be any female deer watching the fight. They spar to gain the right to add does to their harems, which means it's actually a male-male social contract.
>> No. 376070
>>376068
>There is the matter of alphas generally getting the most mating options and, because they're the boss, there's less competitors who'll try to steal mates away. But that is more or less a perk of being the alpha. Buck deer for instance don't spar to show off to does; there might not even be any female deer watching the fight. They spar to gain the right to add does to their harems, which means it's actually a male-male social contract.
"Alpha" theory doesn't really work well when applied to humans. We're not bucks, or even Gorillas or Chimpanzees. Of the other animals alive today, our closest relatives are bonobos, and while they do have "alpha females" more or less, the alpha gets no more sex than anyone else, mostly because EVERYONE has ALL THE SEX. The way being an alpha females among bonobos works is basically "What the fuck is that?" "I dunno, let's have sex, and then we can go ask my grandma."
>> No. 376071
>>376067
I'm not really sure how to respond to this. You seriously think men watch Bill&Ted's Excellent Adventure and, through some universal form of entitlement, expect a beau to pop out of thin air and be beholden to them because of who and what they are. All because it's a facet in entertainment. All because it's apparently part of some unconscious patriarchal conspiracy to implant those expectations. And all because if it's widespread in the culture, it's true and there's nothing you can do about it. This is so offensively condescending and absurd, but I really don't expect much better than this. I'm not sure exactly what kool-aid you're drinking or the location of the secret club you got it, but I don't care for it.

Do you believe video games raise the capacity for one to be violent, irresponsibly sexual, and experiment with drugs?
>> No. 376073
>>376071
Have you noticed that you completely ignore what I'm saying to come up with absurd statements instead, so that you don't have to engage the actual argument? I am talking about the culture. Any given movie or cultural artifact you care to mention, no matter how silly you personally believe it to be, reinforces the assumptions of the society that produced it.

For that matter, a single racist joke is not actually a big deal! Or a single shot of heroin, for that matter. It's never about the individual instance, it's about the habit that those things form.

And yes, video games can modify people's behavior with repeated exposure to recurring ideas in them. But you can't really blame video games for making people violent because every single aspect of our culture glorifies violence. The first stories your parents ever told you almost certainly involved violence. The heroes of almost any story are people who use violence to achieve their goals.

Culture is the most important thing in determining a person's behavior. Even rebels' behavior is largely defined by reacting against their own culture. Your culture believes that a woman's contributions to society are less important than a man's, and that the most valuable part of her is her vagina. Did you think it was due to a conspiracy that women make up 51% of the population, but only control 18% of congress? Our culture quietly hates it when a woman "acts like a man," by accruing personal political power, or being comfortable with her own sexuality, or telling men what to do. We don't say anything to the woman, because that would be sexist. Instead we call her a bitch behind her back, or make fun of how she looks and joke about how we wouldn't want to bang her, and hold events at strip clubs where officially no business / political decisions are made, but unofficially the people who show up network and develop the sorts of relationships that lead to helping one another out later down the line.

Add on to that the realities of childbirth getting in the way of career advancement, and you have a system where the odds are stacked against women at every level, just never in ways where objections are inherently obvious. There's always an excuse for it, like "Well yeah she made $10000 less last year than the man with the same position who's been there the same number of years, but she was out on maternity leave for a chunk of that," or "Well yeah she makes a lot of good points and isn't any less qualified to be CEO, but she's not very nice," (never mind the fact that neither is the dude--we don't expect male CEO's to be motherly), or "Well yeah they're treating the women like prizes in that story, but it's just one stupid little movie that people only watch for camp value anyway."

As I've said several times now: the reason this stuff works is because it is so easy to justify. If it were obviously evil, no one would support it. There's no moustache-twirling going on in this conflict. There is only injustice that remains in place because we've lived with that injustice for so long that we're not even sure what it would look like if it weren't there.
>> No. 376075
>>376071
Well, yeah, Bill and Ted get a couple of Princesses at the end of the movie who more or less pop out of thin air, so, it's not that hard a logical leap.

The idea that it's fantasy doesn't ever really enter your head for a ton of people. All stories are abstractions of reality by nature, but we still think of them as based on reality and thus, while flying across the galaxy and deflecting deadly laser blasts with a sword are patently absurd ideas, we still identify with wanting to do right in the world and saving people who are "good". And we don't necessarily pay attention when presented with great spectacle over real substance.

People do pick up social cues from these movies, especially when they're young. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, we may see that something is horribly racist, or offensive and ignorant, or in some cases just absent. But we're young and seeing these stories for the first time, there's no way to know that. You believe the underlying fiction because you think that's what reality's like, at least on some level. And when the underlying fiction doesn't change from product to product, you may come to think of it as reality. It's why little black girls would say that "white" barbie dolls were more beautiful than "black" barbie dolls; they had been so conditioned by the prevailing media, which solely showed white people at the time, that they perceived the white skin to be more desirable.

Who we place as the heroes of our stories, and how we portray their relationships matters because these stories are used to inspire, and their ability to shape public opinion can be profound. Would the US remember our part in WWII so fondly if Casablanca wasn't one of the best films of all time? The notion seems as ridiculous as a white guy owning a bar in northern Africa.
>> No. 376076
>>376071
>Do you believe video games raise the capacity for one to be violent, irresponsibly sexual, and experiment with drugs?
I really shouldn't get in on this cause I am uneducated as hell and sleep deprived(when am I not, really), but I wanna run with this line of thought for a few minutes, have a fun little thought experiment if it could be called that.
In GTA, you can kill hookers to get money, right? They're loaded, so it makes sense, but it's only in a couple of games, and it seems ridiculous to expect youth to pick up on that as a life lesson, even subconsciously.

But let's say that was always the case.
Let's say every time our hero runs into a money problem, he kills a hooker to get that sweet sweet dosh.
Every hero. In everything.
Every movie, every book, every television show aimed at children 10 and older, every video game, every cartoon mature enough to have a money issue plotline(so all the ones TV-PG and up, then), every time our main character gets into a position where he needs money, he ends up killing a hooker and robbing her. They may dance around it for a bit, the hero may take a few episodes to decide he wants to do that, but in the end, he does, and you knew he was going to the whole time. Even every song about money problems, except the ones meant to be depressing, end in prostitute murder.
Every aspect of media suggests this as the correct and proper way of getting money. It's a valid way of earning it. THE valid way, in fact, no show or movie ever portrays the hero as getting a job, and those that do are rated R/TV-MA/M for Mature. Except for the media aimed at prostitutes, of course, but Timmy isn't a hooker, so why would he watch those?
So he grows up with this constant exposure, and when he's 13 or 14, something big rolls into town. Comic Con? Is that what the kids like these days? Whatever, it'll work. So Comic Con's in town, and Timmy REALLY wants to go. Tix are like $400, and obviously Timmy can't afford that. Everything in his life so far has suggested that he should just kill a hooker(and if he's in a city that hosts Comic Con, there are plenty around) to get the money, but he's not so sure that'll work out, maybe he shouldn't. So he goes to his parents, they've always steered him straight, and asks them. His mom cheerily and sincerely suggests murdering a prostitute and robbing her.("Just be yourself, she'll come around!")

Would Timmy do it? I don't know, and neither do you. It's a pretty extreme example. But fact remains that the idea has been forced on him all his life, from everything. The things he's supposed to learn from, his peers, even his own parents. Even if he doesn't, he's definitely going against the grain, ignoring what he's been told his whole life to pursue his idea of what's right, and how many kids these days do that?

Maybe it's a silly example, I dunno. But no, Bill And Ted won't give you that idea, just like GTA won't teach you to shank a working girl for money. But when it's been shoved in your face your whole life, when it's been taught to you from every source you can think of as the right and just thing, when your family encourage that line of thought?
v0v
>> No. 376077
>>376073
There's no way to engage your actual argument. You are claiming three entwining things.
A.) That "male" media depicts the female sex (individual women who make choices to make themselves the prices in competitions do not count) as prizes and objects to win as a reward for succeeding. This is a big one, because so far this is simply a ridiculous opinion. Not unlike that genius who wrote about Portal being a "female empowerment" game using the symbol of a vagina to overcome guns and bullets. Simply reuiniting with a love interest taken hostage or meeting them after completing their quest at some other date does not count, either. What you are suggesting has broken the relationship between man and woman down to acquiring property and nothing else. You're either buggering the plot aside and seeing exactly what you want to see from a story, or what you're seeing doesn't exist in its raw form at all.
B.) That the average male in this culture expects to acquire a woman like a piece of property just on the premise that they're men and thus deserve a girlfriend/sexual partner/wife, and would get angry with women if they didn't get what they think they're entitled to. You have to prove this is anywhere close to a majority opinion among the male sex in western society, as you are forwarding. Individual anecdotes don't count, clearly, because I don't feel this way (as a man) and none of the men I know practice what you're claiming they consciously or unconsciously, allegedly engage in.
C.) That this media successfully brainwashes men en masse into believing women are simply prizes to be won or tokens of gratitude by society for hitting some milestone. Now, I say en masse because you're claiming it's endemic and culture-wide, rather than just limited to a few fringe lunatics or sheltered and perspectiveless crazies. You must prove, specifically, it is the media doing it. I also make a distinction that regional groups, such as practicing polygamist mormons and upper class college fraternities, do not count. Those are insular economic classes who historically have always gotten away with treating the opposite sex as sexual objects, and they play by different rules from the rest of society.

I'm very positive you can prove none of these things. And yes, it is your burden to prove. If you're going to make such crazy assertions as that and paint across the whole sex, culture and society with those brushes, by god, you're going to prove it.
>> No. 376078
>>376075
Did your parents simply never teach you the difference between reality and fantasy growing up? When did you have the "Tinkerbell isn't real- don't feel so sad" talk? Did your community not ground you at all? Did you watch movies and only accept at face value what they said to you? The scenario you're describing supposes that the individual never goes outside, has sheltered and absurd parents, never questions something they intuitively know to not add up and spent their life just watching movies. It suggests a tenuous grasp on reality to start, made worse by a toxic situation. Moreover, to so easily accept some things are true, such as prejudice being acceptable, to think it's okay to physically harm or damage another, are indicators there's something wrong with a person mentally. The mind has natural inhibitors that kick on for some of this stuff, and others it has tools to differentiate reality from fantasy. Like parents. And neighbors. And friends. To think so many children are that impressionable or don't understand such things, or ever discuss morality amongst themselves, is naive.

And it most certainly is a logical leap. You don't get to declare widgets to be wagglezaks just because if you kind of tilt your head a certain way, they -could- be them. The characters in the example, Bill&Ted, were not depicted as prizes for the adventure. They were given the same treatment the rest of the time displaced travelers were, which is to say they were brought on for misadventures in a time machine. Males and females. The only difference is over the course of their story, they brushed elbows with two beings that became their romantic interests. That is NOT a case of women being reduced to a prize.
>>376076
I respect your sleepy state. I was going to bed but then lol there were replies. Here's my take on your thought experiment.
The human mind has inhibitions against murder. Any military will tell you that. As a species, a healthy human brain has to be indoctrinated to do it, because it otherwise breaks our inhibitors. Compromised inhibition on a neurological scale causes physiologicla changes in the brain tissue. It's not simply a moral thing, it's a physical brain one. Now, individuals can be more or less predisposed to being able to murder and recover quicker from the shock, suspend shock, cope with the shock, or feel no shock at all, but unless there's something compromised (psychosis) we biologically are pretty adamant about this issue. Killing is taboo. Shooting somebody with imaginary bullets is not.
It's only through proactive indoctrination that these inhibitions become compromised. The inability to determine fact from fantasy and fiction. The inability to distinguish fantasy from reality suggests a compromised psyche. Things that are real are reacted to by the inhibitors. Things that are theory or not real, are not. When exposed to what is real and fact, the brain has to cope. Watching tragedy as a child soldier, being told that public executions are good things and being given "righteous" reasons why.

For Timmy to believe murdering prostitutes is moral, ethical or conscienable, he'd have to live in an environment that never tells him the difference between what is real and what is imaginary, and never come to that conclusion of distinctiveness himself. This suggests a retarded maturity or a mental impairment, or very thorough indoctrination. In which case, he has more working against him than access to violent video games or comic books.

Yes, I think when something is shoved in your face from all angles, your entire life, you do have a good reason to believe it may be legitimate. Unless it isn't, and you have a lick of sense to reason, and you've ever contemplated the concepts of wrong or right, harm or benign, respect and empathy. That whole compass conscience guide thing. Sense can overrule culture and tradition, if you have the sense and courage to use it.
>> No. 376084
>>376078
Unbelieveably Ram, yes, people don't think about these things, which is terrifying.
>> No. 376085
>>376070
We have a hierarchy, and we defer to leaders, and we don't tend to mess with people we know have more authority than we do. Ordered societies are not the feature of a particular species, it's a feature of social animals in general. So is the fact that the most well-off/well-liked/powerful individuals (depending on which is the most valued) are the most sought after and have the most sway in the group.

And you're wrong since the bonobo queen does get first pickings. If she doesn't want some other female making babies with her man, she will chase her off (and then maybe have sex with her????), and bonobos preferentially select mates in a way that won't piss other bonobos off. You also can't compare them to humans just because they are closely related to us, because bonobos have a very, uh, unique social system that isn't really seen in any other animal. We are much more like chimpanzees, and share a lot of physiological indicators of our social and mating strategies with them (how big males are compared to females, testicular size relative to body mass, etc.). It's bonobos that diverged from the ancestral state and got weird, not us.

>>376078
That last paragraph, Ram, that's the thing. You get this trophy message from media since you were very small, and most people are never told to question it. It doesn't set off our "this isn't something I should actually think or expect in real life" censors because it's always portrayed as a good thing, it's everywhere, and there's no real reason for you to question it. It doesn't look like it hurts anybody, directly or indirectly. And alone, it doesn't. It's harmless and cute and I don't think anyone who isn't a raging douchebag will tell you that this kind of love story can't be heartwarming or something you want for yourself. It's just that it's ALWAYS THIS ONE and the girl (always a girl, never a boy) almost never gets characterization of her own that is unrelated to the male protagonist's pursuit of her. There is no calculated conspiracy to shut women out, but it happens anyway, and people get mad when somebody points out the sum of its parts has a negative impact on how people see women because the individual pieces are so nice.

This is a recurring problem when talking about third wave feminism. A lot of this stuff has to do with the big picture, how harmless things people do without thinking can be a problem when literally everybody does it. Actions don't exist in a vacuum, and you can have too much of a good thing.
>> No. 376090
>>376085
>There is no calculated conspiracy to shut women out, but it happens anyway, and people get mad when somebody points out the sum of its parts has a negative impact on how people see women because the individual pieces are so nice.
When you point at an actual piece and can prove that piece has anything whatsoever to do with misogyny outside the special definitions you're using to fit a very particular narrative, you'll have an argument. You haven't, and aren't, and it holds about as much water as the Korean belief electric fans in a bedroom lead to death or proof the Fox Newsian "War on Christmas" is real. You don't get to point at any ole piece of the tapestry and leer so hard that suddenly the piece lights up and changes shape, fitting nice and neatly into a conspiracy, no matter if it's something engineered or just coincidentally fits into a directionless machine oppressing women.

People get mad when you have an issue with a person, and while you can't substantiate your accusations to their involvement in any meaningful or logical way, you reach longer and longer to try and prove their guilt, coming up with more and more reaching and inane ways to kinda-sorta-if-you-look-at-it-the-right-way-and-accept-this-information-as-factual make them guilty of something. I reject your notion that this media reduces women into prizes, I reject your notion it has any effect on the male sex outside of already warped individuals who already have vested interest in believing similar things (criminal minds) and I reject your notion it's anywhere close to a widespread belief among men. You don't get to go "well you're a man and you don't know better and I'm up here in the big picture" and be taken seriously. Not if you haven't given weight to the small things that reinforce the big things.

I understand the need for a reason giving weight and power to what's holding women back from further progress, but this is not it. Stuff like this, arguments from angry women spouting accusations of sexism and nonsense where there isn't any, is exactly why it earns such animosity and such a reputation through the 80s and 90s. This kind of bullying nonsense that thinks it's above accountability and that if only everybody just took the accusations at face value and changed for them, things would be nicer. You must explain and prove what you're shilling, or it holds no more weight than the accusation of sin or slight or guilt of crime before a foreign god.
>> No. 376094
>>376090
The problem is that nothing we could offer you would work as proof for you. The things we are saying are really, really basic sociology. Like I mean the entirety of societal understandings are based on assumptions that you are flat out saying you refuse to believe until someone proves them to you. "I am completely unaffected by the glorification of violence in our culture. I'd like to shoot the person who started that rumor."
>> No. 376095
>>376094
>"I am completely unaffected by the glorification of violence in our culture. I'd like to shoot the person who started that rumor."
"I am completely unaffected by the supposed trophetization of women in our culture. I'd like to enter a karate competition to save a youth center, and to win the heart of the girl who started this rumor."
Hmm. Nope. That does not appear to sound like what I'm saying. I guess the assumption you just made based on your own spin on the facts is incorrect.
>> No. 376098
>>376095
Okay, then let's look at this another way: you believe that culture does not affect people. If that's the case, then the systematic disenfranchisement of women must be intentional and the result of a conspiracy. Who do you think is in charge of this conspiracy?
>> No. 376099
>>376090
It isn't a matter of who's "guilty." Finding a guilty party isn't the point, and it doesn't even make sense in this context because it takes two to tango. "Patriarchy" is a system of ideas that is held by both men and women, and it would not be our system if 50% or less of the population followed it. A partiarch is a man in charge. A patriarchy is not a person at all, or a group of people. It represents values and expectations we have of other people in relation to their gender, which are taught to us by our parents, our peers and the stories we are told. It is not a person. It is not a person. Please stop getting offended when this gets brought up because it is not about you and it is not targeting you or putting you down.

This is why I said upthread that something needs to be done about that word, because it's confusing and puts dudes on the defensive because they think we're talking about them and shit they do wrong specifically. Not conductive.

Women enjoy these stories too. We like them and we write them and there is nothing inherently wrong with an everydude overcoming obstacles and getting to kiss the pretty girl as a reward. The problem is that that's all there is. There are actually some sociological hypotheses floating around that the reason you find so many straight women writing and reading slash fiction is because they want to see dudes in the object role instead of girls (because they are attracted to men) but they are so used to seeing the male protagonist as the active hero character that they will default to him instead of using a female. This checks out based on my experiences with these communities. Holy shit, the amount of girls who say they don't write female protags because they "don't know how" and they "can't identify" with female characters as well as they can with males, despite being women themselves. There are tips on writing strong female characters that are like, "create this character thinking of them as you would a male character, and then switch the pronouns." And girls who do genderbends of active male characters tend to cut down their story roles to fit better into the feminine support role while genderbent female characters get to be more heroic than they had been while they were female. These things generally are done by inexperienced writers but I think that makes it stronger evidence, because they haven't learned to check themselves and subvert tropes yet. They're writing using whatever tools they have gained from prior experience with stories without thinking about it too hard, and this is pretty uniformly what they all come up with by the time that they are old enough to start posting shitty fanfiction on the internet and start talking about it. Really young girls, when they write their first stories at like 6 or 7 are more likely to write female protags they identify with but the frequency in which they do it decreases as they get older, which may be attributed to increased media exposure. That's really kind of disconcerting! Girls should be writing stories about themselves. But they don't. Nobody is telling them that they aren't allowed to; it's self-censorship that gets reinforced as readers flock to stories about dudes and ignore the ones with female POV. At least, it's self-censorship until they grow up and try to get their stories on cable, where female characters in shows targeted towards boys or all genders get shot down. (Did you know Tenny in Motorcity was supposed to be a Burner too? But Disney said TWO GIRLS ON THE TEAM WAS TOO MANY so Tenny was reduced to a one-shot character. A one-shot character who played a romance-as-reward role in her episode, to boot.)

There are also many psychological studies showing the effects reading stories have on us. The barrier between fiction and reality, it turns out, is actually very flimsy when it comes to emotions. And they are a very powerful teaching tool. We DO learn from example of characters in stories that we empathize with, and while reading stories it doesn't matter if the characters are fictional or people who really existed, we think of them in pretty much the same way even though rationally we know Harry Potter is not a real guy. The psychology of storytelling is actually incredibly fascinating and whether or not you're invested in this stupid imageboard debate about feminism I highly recommend looking up some articles about storytelling & empathy on google scholar. They are very neat.
>> No. 376101
60-70 years ago it was pretty common to see caricatures of black people in plenty of media, cartoons for example, where beyond just the physical exaggerations they were almost always characterized as being goofy, uneducated and happy with their position in society. In retrospect it's easy to see how this reinforced certain beliefs in society, even if it did not install those beliefs in the first place.

The current debate seems to be about whether or not the same is happening now with women in media. Just thought I'd bring up this possible parallel as food for thought.
>> No. 376102
>>376098
Culture does matter. Just not the way you're trying to apply it. There are far more factors to it than that, though.
First, we have the biological. That's not really a conspiracy, but it just so happens to be the cause of the inequality to start with. We all know that sperm is cheap and easily attained, eggs and the basket to produce babies in isn't, and the natural competitive game it is to get that to work. These are immovable objects for the most part, but the tyranny of biology won't be an impediment forever. Surrogacy is becoming more common, and there are other means by which women will see more competitive advantages so they won't be tied down with biological obligations. This in itself is a very primal level of inequality, and it affects everything that comes after it. Sexual dimorphism itself.
Second, the neurological. Gray to white matter distribution, the effects endocrines have on the development of the brain, what these differences actually -mean-. We still don't have enough data to make concrete heads or tails, so working here is mostly a nonstarter.
Third, the practical and philosophical. Is a basket of grain carried by a woman worth less than a basket of grain carried by a man? What is it about being female that causes one to make less and be promoted less than a man? Many, many things. This is distinct in that one industry or organization or trade often has to bow to physical practicality and grit, and sometimes that means bucking culture to make it possible.
Fourth, the cultural. And yes, this does come after the philosophical in my book, or at least sit at a different position on the same tier. If it were a venn diagram, they'd overlap. Society's opinion on the sexes and their obligations and their values and taboos.
Fifth, The Landed Gentry. Believe it or not, there's a classist element to all this.
Sixth, the legislation and policy of the culture.

The things I see (and I emphasize, this is all just observation made with my butt) holding women back are unfortunate rules of the game. Their own playing pieces are, in some ways, disadvantaged based on the context of the game we're playing, especially if they want to fulfill all their sex's capabilties by the end. IE: Be both a mother, and a professional in their chosen craft. Women by and large need resources and time and more community assistance to do the same things a man is expected to do for themselves, or for other women. That complicates things right at the getgo, but as society advances technologically, this difference becomes less and less relevant. And good riddance when that day comes.

Then we come to where physical meets rational. The distribution of our brainmeats. They've found that, while exceptions and individuals exist, women unfortunately do not handle the workplace in the same manner a man does. By this I mean they operate with different tolerances, responses and reactions to stimuli, be it success, failure, persistence and independence based on their sex. A man may be more quick to step forwards if he has a slim shot of victory, because he feels he has less to lose. A woman may hold herself back, fearing even at 40-50% chance of success, it's not worth the risk. A man will turn down offers for jobs and say "can you do me better?" more often than a woman, who will often see the first offer as salvation and see it as superior to nothing. It's why, I've seen it discussed, there are fewer women willing to run for office, much less women who win. And men react to this perceived default reaction of shyness by stepping up for both themselves and under the operating knowledge a woman might start doubting herself and falter, necessitating stepping up. This is why they prefer the distribution of qualities in men vs. women in some industries. Advantage, predictability, and control. If women worked in coal mines in our society at the same number as men, we'd have a bigger push for tighter safety regulations in the mine and health inspections to reduce toxin related death or impairment.

And then we come to the brass tacks, where observation of these physical things becomes rationalized business policy. I have some stories, man. Horrible stories. Do you know the state of nursing in our (assuming you're from North America) country? Do you know there are nurses in isolated regions working in overworked, underpaid positions, female nurses making about as much as they made 30 years ago without much increase in payment? People are paying more for care, but all that money is going to their employers. Agencies. A business will exploit the structures and resources that just so happen to be there, and a business will exploit the female dissinterest in making waves in favor of stability in order to retain their position. They're more likely to cow to intimidation and handling authoritative power causes them more stress. And so business capitalizes on what it knows women will do nothing about. Are they actively targeting women? No. But women naturally target nursing. And like a wolf naturally targets a familiar shape of an animal it knows it can exploit for meat, women in those industries will be preyed on. If we had more male nurses to bang the table and threaten to call the State to get involved, ie: Pay us more or this whole fucking table gets flipped, or more women stepped up in their own defense, this shit would be less common. But they don't.

And here we come to the unhappy corner where the village and neighborhood meets the church and the heritage. This can vary depending on individuals, the times, access to information, and the philosophical culture already there, whether it weaves nicely with the local book everybody is on the same page on, or diverges completely. Opinions, which make people relate to one another based on certain operating logic. "A woman should be a submissive blahblahblahblah," says the book. And so, a believe of the book expresses this belief. The book says anything that prevents a woman from getting pregnant is an abomination, and therefore, the woman has the choice between letting nature take its course, or celibacy. The book highly recommends being charitable to your workers, but says a woman's place is in the kitchen, thereby convincing the observer of the book who owns the local Thneed Mill to hire men, so they can take care of those little lambs. And it's their little slice of heaven and providence, so they don't take kindly to government or any other overforce telling them who they should hire or why. It's their little Napoleon way of controlling the environment around people who disagree, to make them comply and do as desired. Pigeonholing them to do as specified by them, who are doing it on behalf of what the book or the doctrine thinks is best. Men and women have cultural expectations by people afraid to let them down and be ostracized for doing it, and some lovingly wait their turn to stomp on people lower than them.

Speaking of what some blowhard arbitrates as the law of the land, we come to the more isolated movers and shakers in society. How about those guys that don't operate under the pretext of the book, but still use their agency and leverage in industry, business, real estate and etc. to push a social agenda when they can? Be it redlining districts to keep the negros out, ensuring their buddies get all the lucrative jobs because they network and know a guy, ensuring people they don't particulaly like can't network and get those jobs, they then make sure only certain people with a certain amount of money can afford to live in certain places. The rest of the places? They couldn't care less if somebody build a lead refinement plant there. They're bound by zoning laws, the law of the land and the government, but only when they can't use money as a lever to pressure a community or an industry or an entire region to do what they want. And this can be used to push opinions on a man and a woman's place. And often is. They dominate fashion, they dominate music, they dominate the Good Life and all the things and glitz and glamor the poor and middle class aspire to.

And finally we have the actual on paper laws and the policies and the amendments of a nation or community's rules. These are static, as opposed to dynamic, and resistant to change. It's hard to make a rule an operand that will affect all of society, and it works best when all these working parts agree to it, because laws are static while people, organizations and businesses are dynamic. They will move goal posts around to try and keep doing what they want. And if they have a vested interest in keeping things a certain way, or rolling back the privileges a group (women) enjoy, they'll do it. Bugger what the rules on the books say if they can loophole, build around or skirt them. Some have penalties so minor they don't even care about them and will continue to do what they want.

These are the things, all working separately and sometimes coincidentally together, that make sexual equality difficult to observe, perceive, grasp, manipulate and balance. The idea that video games, comic books and bad movies are subtly altering all men's expectations of women beyond their consciousness of it, and that somehow contributes to all of society's oppression of women, is juvenile and patronizing at best. There are way, way more important and insidious gears in the machine than Short Circuit, Peter Pan or Double Dragon to think about.

tl;dr: Pimps, whores and the clergy.
>> No. 376103
>>376101
But those caricatures were created from the top-down with the intention of characterizing black people as an inferior people. And I'm pretty sure, unlike today where we do have women that like stories featuring them as princesses, The Romantic Interest In That Stupid Cheesy Movie and whatever, there weren't many black people ala Uncle Ruckus who appreciated that mentality.

There's no question girls do get the short end of the stick in media. That, I am not refuting or arguing. At all. In fact, I am very much in favor of not making those mistakes and playing to weak writing. Not because it contributes to terrible stereotypes and fixtures in society, but because the storyteller culture has evolved. But the thing being discussed above is whether or not the male sex (and not SOME members of the male sex) read into these movies and get an unreasonable expectation of sex and relationships because of them. It's being dressed up the way Amos and Andy is perceived today, implying it's both unwittingly playing into a culture of hate and oppression, and we'll all know better and blush recalling it years down the road.
I argue, no. Lame cheesy teen fantasy stories will always be a staple in human culture, and they'll be there as long as we have teenagers to enjoy them and adults who like corny stories. It doesn't give society unconscious delusions at all!
>> No. 376106
Ram, I think your problem is that you want a villain. You expect there to be some laughing mastermind behind it all. You want there to be a plot, some hidden agenda, a conscious effort at perpetrating these ideas.

Sometimes there isn't, though. Life isn't always filled with comic book bad guys.
>> No. 376127
So something that happened not-very-recently was Obama returning five percent of his pay to the treasury by just writing a check to it. That's alright news in and of itself, but I'm more interested in how it related to>>375627, specifically in that it means people can donate directly to the treasury at all. Not the same as sending money to a specific program, but still interesting to know about.
>> No. 376156
>>376078
May I direct you to how mad you're getting about this? 9 paragraphs in one post is a little overdramatic.

Insinuating that I didn't know that Tinkerbell wasn't real when I was like, 8, is a little bit ad hominem for an actual discussion point. But let me tell you what kind of idiot falls for this sort of thing.

My parents are both college educated with Bachelors degrees and I think my mother may actually have a Masters (I don't think my dad has a second degree). My parents are still together after my brother and I have moved out, and while they both work demanding jobs my Mother is arguably the breadwinner with more stable employment. I am white, but I was raised with weight given to intelligence, critical thought, alternative history, and not an insignificant amount of research into the history of Civil Rights, due to a childhood friend who was different in so many ways other than his skin color that I just could not understand at the time. I repair my own car (when I can), I fix computers for a living, I'm trying to teach myself discrete mathematics and GPU programming in my spare time. So naturally, I welcome any and all comments about my perceived intelligence.

When I was 8, Tenchi Muyo convinced me that the world owed me not just a woman but 5 women, just for existing. Of course that doesn't make sense now, but I was 8. You're not making the most complex picture of the world then and nobody sat me down on their knee and said "you know 5 women having an inexplicable interest in you for no real reason does not happen to anyone in the real world unless you're Fabio".

That seed has ruined every single relationship I have been in with a woman. Tenchi Muyo may have been a bad thing to let a kid watch, but the thing was, everywhere else I looked there wasn't anything disputing it. I was blown away by Adventure Time when Marceline said, "Finn I don't really like you like that but it's cool if we're friends", and Finn ways like "oh okay". In the 15 years after my childhood, I had never seen the issue dealt with like that. Sure, I'd seen men and women who were friends; but in these shows, they were always friends with the subtle unresolved sexual tension, with the implicit assumption that all they were destined for, all they really wanted, was a good hard dicking. To have Finn try to get with Marceline and have her say "let's be friends" and have Finn respect that, that was huge for me personally, because I had done that exact same thing and I hadn't respected the woman in question. And when they left it hurt. It hurt that they left, it hurt that I knew I had made them leave, and it hurt that I didn't understand why. This is what they wanted, right? This is what every girl dreams of, isn't it? That's what all those girls standing in the background of all my favorite TV shows and movies were standing around for, right? they didn't do anything else usually anyway.

I agree with that article because I have felt every single one of those 5 discussion points at some time in my life. I felt entitled, I felt they did not really have a say, and then when I was rejected I felt betrayed by my own body and the other person, and then less of a man for having failed this ridiculous mating ritual, and ultimately powerless. While I have never physically forced myself upon a person, the things I did and said after the consensual sex have caused women to shut me out. Scorched Earth; none of them would even talk to me afterwards, let me try and (incapably) explain.

This stuff is a giant, gaping wound in my life. It has destroyed all the relationships I have ever attempted, and now it cripples me socially with the knowledge of what I did and how I hurt those girls.

Nobody ever sat me down and told me it was wrong until that one girl nearly called the cops on me in high school (only for writing a letter to her, nothing else). Cue 7 years of not really getting it and a depression I'm still sort of struggling with.

This can hurt you. It can hurt the ones you love and the ones you care about, it can hurt random strangers. And the worst thing about is that the person doing the damage doesn't really know why they're doing it, or they don't understand how the act can hurt another person. They think it's just an aspect of mindless television. We're a generation raised on mindless television, I think the location of our discussion kind of underscores that. You're right, the stupid teen sitcom won't go away ever, but that doesn't mean it should continue to portray girls as a window dressing to boys accomplishments. Ideally, I'd like the same for gays, people of all skin colors, ethnic backgrounds, people with disabilities (Community, ur doin it rite)

Speaking of tl;dr and overlydramatic everyone ignore this while I go have a panic attack in a corner and not post for about a week
>> No. 376161
>>376106
That isn't what I'm saying, or thinking, at all.
>>376156
I'm not angry. Or rather, wasn't when I wrote it. I will admit to a habit I haven't been able to shake, brought on by living with people that intentionally start arguments with me and then use willful ignorance power to misconstrue my side of things.
It actually sounds like you're so ashamed of your youthful ignorance that it's painting how you perceive all of society must think or feel. It's not a question of intelligence. If it were, people with autism and aspergers would probably get some people-logic more intuitively. It's a question of intuition. Perception. I assure you, a minority of people actually saw Tenchi Muyo as children or teenagers and thought because Tenchi had a convenient harem, that's natural. You reason it was easy enough for you to actually think more of it than whimsical escapism, so it must be a very common problem.
>> No. 376171
File 136578120192.jpg - (158.01KB , 1280x852 , tumblr_mkur9aUyKJ1rpbi9uo4_1280.jpg )
376171
FRONTLINE | The Bombing of al-Bara | PBSyoutube thumb

27:40-30:30

This is the hardest the cyclical nature of war has ever hit me.
>> No. 376172
>>376156
That's why I like Adventure Time so much, and why I think cartoons are still worth watching. I'm realizing for me that it's not just because I'm a feminist, but because part of me finds the guy and the girl automatically falling in love because they've spent enough time together unrealistic and boring. I was blown away by a story I read that was written in the 1950's just because it had a man living in a woman's house for several years, and they never even became friends. The story ended with her disliking and resenting him the same as she had since Day 1.

I think it's also why I like seeing minority and female characters so much, too. Not just because I want to see them get their time in the spotlight, but because we get a different perspective, even slightly, from a story that was once tired and played out.
>> No. 376173
>>376171
That is an amazing picture.
That is an awful picture.
>> No. 376174
File 136578363978.jpg - (194.95KB , 800x523 , tumblr_mkur9aUyKJ1rpbi9uo1_1280.jpg )
376174
>>376173
Agreed.
>> No. 376175
>>376172

Which story is this?
>> No. 376185
yo anyone who thinks that culture "doesnt matter" is seriously understating the importance of creators and artists in shaping the thoughts and attitudes of the society it attempts to appeal to.
the headline "how men are trained to hate women" is intentionally inflammatory but the concept of men feeling entitled to women because of what they've been taught through nearly every story thats ever been told is not a new or novel concept. this is def a thing that happens.
the problem is youre trying to take it super literally, like as if a someone sees one movie and then goes "oh i deserve a girl now". its a pervasive attitude in society, not an event.
>> No. 376187
>>376175
"The Very Old Man With Enormous Wings". The woman's already married, but the man lives with her, and she never really gives him any respect or treats him like anything but an animal.
>> No. 376206
>>376187

Thanks. I don't know why I asked you, though. It's not like I'm going to have any time to read it at this point in the semester.

>>376185

I've been thinking about this lately. Like, I'm black and I used to think the idea of things like gangster rap having an effect on culture was silly. But...there are still some impressionable minds out there. Now, I'm not saying I've turned completely on this: The idea that some kid listened to NWA and went out to become a drug dealer because of it is absurd, but when you see things enough and aren't at the point where you can discern where you need to stop taking at advice, things can get a bit problematic. Not to project my experiences onto everyone else, but surely at some point in your life, you saw an anime/cartoon/comic book/movie/whatever and took something away from it that you thought was real. It happened to me multiple times throughout my life.

Let's take something like high school for example. I watch TV and see all these nerdy kids getting beat up and shoved into lockers, and I think that this is something that's true to life. Then I got into high school. I never saw anyone get shoved into a locker. some of the jocks where pretty nice (and some were pretty damn smart), and cheerleaders weren't all bitches (just an aside, most of the meanest kids who went to my high school weren't involved in any extracurricular activities). Now don't get me wrong: High school was one of the shittier periods of my life, probably entirely the fault of hormones and teenaged awkwardness, but it wasn't shitty for the reasons that TV told me it was.

It's not always bad to have the arts shaping opinions, though. Sometimes you end up with something like To Kill a Mockingbird. You know, this reminds me of that whole shitstorm about Jurassic Park 4 and the feathered dinosaurs. I understand that some people wanted it to be scientifically accurate, especially because of how people take "Hollywood Realism" along with them, but at the same time, it's a damn movie and doesn't have any responsibility to educate people, only to entertain people. I think we need to get to the point where we get people to think critically about the media they take in.

I have no idea what the fuck I'm typing. I was just rambling for a second there.
>> No. 376210
>>376206

i feel ya. one of the most important things people dont really think about is the amount of responsibility media makers and social shakers have on the world and i think author responsibility is a really big deal.
that sounds really pretentious but i guess all im trying to say is that people should think about the message they're sending to all the people in their audience and whether or not that message falls under the mst3k rule or if its actually something that should be scrutinized and examined in all seriousness.
>> No. 376214
File 136584998872.jpg - (304.89KB , 1383x2184 , debord_sofs.jpg )
376214
Oh, are we doing this? Great! Because this is something that has been thrashing in my brain for a while now.

I feel disgusted at myself and disgust at the rest of the west for this whole 'nerd/internet/geek culture' rise How it became this massive spectacle and just how deeply it runs through me.

I'm not just talking about the insipid "fake geek" debate I'm talking about all facets of this monster, the pop-science megastars and their personality cult, the website tribalism on whose shitty JavaScript website is the true internet hellhole, the built in misogyny, the insanity of hyperactive fandoms, how utterly confrontational its members are and finally how nauseatingly manufactured how much of that culture is. Its alienating, horrifying and worst of all everyone is extremely defensive when you try and bring up the fact that maybe the pop culture your consuming is affecting you more than you think it is.

I was once at a bar talking to a friend on different Arduino projects and the gentlemen we shared a table with said "you guys remind me of Sheldon form big bang theory" after conversing with him for a bit we found out he was a professional chemist. What struck me odd is that this grown man looked at my Friend and I and compared us to a autistic savant on a formulaic show wrapped up in a laugh track.

But Big bang theory is easy pickings, Lets try a different topic, like 4chan and how it shaped the way people talk to each other? People still use colloquialism like '>implying', 'I shiggity diggity' or all kinds of stupid shit. From time to time I even find myself using fag as a suffix. Whats worse is when you look at your friends and you can slowly see how they really view race and sex and you get scared to see how close it is to all the jokes and images that fester /b/ and /pol/ or any site really.

I'm not even immune from this, I look at all the comic book crap I have. My Hellboy glove, lantern rings, shelves filled with TPBs. Does this stuff make me happy? Yes of course, but does it underline who I' am as a person? Am I the person based on my experiences or by the stuff I own? What is more important, the life I live or the stories I read?

A while ago my father and I had a discussion, I'm not entirely sure what but I guess it was about sci-fi or movies or something of the sort. He said
" Look son... I don't really like fiction all that much, I just think the real world has enough excitement and mystery"
I never really agreed with him initially but then I sat back and saw the rise of volatile fandoms(bronies) reading stories about how people would rather live as a fictional character than live in the real world. How many hours groups of people will spend obsessively watching a retard spiral downwards in life. The endless growing hunger for constant content no matter what it was.

I'm just very tired of it.
>> No. 376215
>>376214
I'm glad you're finally starting to understand why I think you're all terrible people.
>> No. 376216
File 136586775446.jpg - (70.68KB , 360x403 , Moe King Tripfag.jpg )
376216
>>376215
>> No. 376254
A big part of the problem with media's representation of romance is that we've come to a very simple agreement with it. That it will do it's best to be true to life, regardless of it's fantastical elements. That's fine and enjoyable. Mario's not a pinnacle of realism, but all the character's have a reasonable motivation (free a kingdom and save the girl who kisses him vs. conquer it and take the princess for a bride) and there are simplified but mostly true rules for how it must be done (defeat the enemy army by taking out it's generals and king). No one really cares about it, but it's there. The problem comes when the end result becomes possible. Seeing it enough slowly slides a person's bullshit meter from "who the fuck acts like that" to "that's how a person should act". And since I've met a lot of people who think in narrative, I kind of get how that can happen. Murderers become heartless monsters, enemy kings become politicians, etc. I'm sure you've heard that part before.

>>376214
Self-awareness sucks. Grab a beer and decompress. I highly recommend spinning in circles and making truth where you can.
>> No. 376261
>>376254
I hate it too. If two characters are together for any period of time, and one's male and one's female, they'll end up together. All characters are straight, and if one character happens not to be straight, they'll end up with the only other gay character on the show, as if compatible sexuality and being attractive is all you need to be a couple.
>> No. 376268
>if one character happens not to be straight, they'll end up with the only other gay character on the show, as if compatible sexuality and being attractive is all you need to be a couple.
To be fair, people prefer to see two characters we actually know begin a romance instead of one guy we know and love and some random ass non-character that's tacked on just so he can have a boyfriend. And with gay characters, we like seeing them in particular finding love because they're usually coded as romantic underdogs who've faced discrimination about it in the past.

We also usually just assume a character is straight and treat it as fact until a big fucking deal is made about them being gay or bisexual (unless they have been a really stereotypical flaming homosexual from their introduction). Which is more of a failure on the viewer's side imo.
>> No. 376269
>>376268
It is a reasonable assumption to, with no clues given, presume a character to be part of the statistical majority.
>> No. 376270
>>376268
So we solve that by having the male character's boyfriend or the female character's girlfriend not tacked on. Introduce them as a regular part of the cast. To be fair, I've seen a lot of tacked-on heterosexual relationships as well (House, I'm looking at you), so I think it's a general fumble on writing romance in general.
>> No. 376282
File 136602945261.jpg - (5.16KB , 598x448 , u_s_s_r_-flag-5-feet-x-3-feet-2864-p.jpg )
376282
Remember when we all went Soviet Union when Obamacare passed?
>> No. 376316
http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=106374

In a day and age where the Vatican's going soft on us, it's good to see a religious leader who understands the classics.
>> No. 376374
Active Duty Soldier Illegally …youtube thumb
This video makes me really mad.
Explanation's in the description.
>> No. 376381
>>376282
Obamacare is actually inferior to Soviet healthcare.
>> No. 376382
>>376381
Can you prove this?
>> No. 376383
>>376382
Easily:
The USSR had free universal healthcare. Obamacare does not.

There. Done.
>> No. 376384
>>376383
Yeah. Well my dad could beat up your dad. It helps yours is dead.
>> No. 376385
>>376383
The USSR had doctors? Like actual doctors? Not mad scientists with stethoscopes?
>> No. 376387
The Soviet Union was not some dark nightmareland where all things were horrible all the time. It had quite a bit less crime than modern Russia, and particularly during the Brezhnev-Andrpov-Cherneko-Gorbachev period it had a significantly lower amount of poverty. The collapse of the Union quite arguably did more harm than good for Russia and the old SFRs (the dissolution destroyed the middle class almost completely).
>> No. 376388
>>376387
What's a "middle class?"
>> No. 376389
>>376388
The working class/bourgeoisie. People who aren't really poor but aren't really rich either and have 9-to-5 jobs. When the middle class collapses it means that there are no jobs available, and all those people become destitute which completely destroys the economy.
>> No. 376393
>>376389
It was a joke. I was commenting on the fact that the middle class in the United States (and presumably other countries) is rapidly becoming a thing that doesn't exist.
>> No. 376396
>>376389
>and all those people become destitute which completely destroys the economy
Which is pretty much what happened to Russia in the 90s. Yeltsin and his fellow ultra-radicals took advantage of the old guard's attempted coup on Gorbachev to sweep the rug out from under both sides. People talk about how America and the west is falling completely under the control of CEOs have no real perspective on what that actually means.

or, putting it another way: baaaaw, first world problems
>> No. 376398
>>376396
You know, the fact that someone else has/had problems worse than your own doesn't mean that your problems don't matter.
>> No. 376399
>>376398
pretty sure that's exactly what it means friend
>> No. 376400
>>376399
Ah, so then for example you think we should've allowed slavery to continue since it wasn't as bad as outright ethnic cleansing?
>> No. 376401
>>376400
Well of course.
>> No. 376414
CISPA passin' through the house, today.
Obama's administration saying "lol nah dawg vetoed. Dead on arrival."
>> No. 376417
>>376414
Still a good idea to make a lot of angry noise about it getting this far, even if it's highly unlikely that it gets passed into law. Can't afford to appear complacent.
>> No. 376421
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/113/house/1/votes/117/

I'm happy to report at least my state's House of Representative people voted properly.

Now you folks go chew the ears out of the representatives of your districts!
>> No. 376424
>>376421
No luck there. I'm in Florida. Our reps hear that they're upsetting people who aren't part of the Tea Party and they celebrate.
>> No. 376425
>Daily Show
>the great gun control fallout
Sorry for your legislators Americlaps
>> No. 376426
My state senator said video games have you LITERALLY shooting people!

I didn't vote for him.
>> No. 376427
Looks like someone is rejoicing from the vote today:
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/18/shooting-reported-on-mit-campus/
>> No. 376430
File 136634460271.png - (592.46KB , 810x578 , tumblr_mlgmf1Snfh1qz5yb4o4_1280.png )
376430
>>376427
Kind frames the Onion's joke.
>> No. 376431
>>376430
I swear those fuckers have a time machine and half their stories are just pulling inane crap from the future.
>> No. 376432
>>376431
The sad fact is that you don't HAVE to go to the future to be able to predict these things.
>> No. 376437
Chechnyans. huh, i joked about them being hibabs, but turns out it was true.
>> No. 376438
File 136637813639.png - (355.38KB , 500x540 , top sun.png )
376438
/pol/ is currently attempting to convince themselves that the Boston bombing suspects aren't white.
>> No. 376439
>>376426
first thing to pop in my mind was
>Ps3game holding person hostage.jpg
>> No. 376445
>>376438

Huehue. This makes me giddy.
>> No. 376484
So angry...
>> No. 376494
File 13664745219.jpg - (830.49KB , 700x3000 , Obama4.jpg )
376494
>> No. 376495
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/aclu-eyes-boston-bombing-suspects-miranda-rights-19007093
>U.S. officials say a special interrogation team for high-value suspects will question Tsarnaev without reading him his Miranda rights, invoking a rare public safety exception triggered by the need to protect the public from immediate danger.
Fucking bullshit. I don't care how heinous the act or any "immediate danger" (a danger they fail to mention, conveniently), he still has the same rights as every other person and should be Miranda'd.
>> No. 376502
File 13664958852.jpg - (438.87KB , 2592x1936 , its iraq-oh no wait no its not.jpg )
376502
>>376494
>>376495
Oh man I can't wait for America to become an empire.
>> No. 376503
>>376502
It's already an empire. It's just not technically a military junta yet.
>> No. 376519
>>376495
What are Miranda Rights and their function?

Also, it's a little unnerving how some people are celebrating over this thing like a sports event.
>> No. 376520
>>376519
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning
>The Miranda warning, also referred to as Miranda rights, is a warning given by police in the United States to criminal suspects in police custody (or in a custodial interrogation) before they are interrogated to preserve the admissibility of their statements against them in criminal proceedings.

>The suspect must be properly advised of their Miranda rights—namely, the Fifth Amendment right against compelled self incrimination (and, in furtherance of this right, the right to counsel while in custody). The Fifth Amendment right to counsel means that the suspect has the right to consult with an attorney before questioning begins and have an attorney present during the interrogation. The Fifth Amendment right against compelled self incrimination is the right to remain silent—the right to refuse to answer questions or to otherwise communicate information. Therefore, before any interrogation begins, the police must advise the suspect that:
>> they have the right to remain silent;
>> anything the suspect does say can and will be used against them;
>> they have the right to have an attorney present before and during the questioning; and
>> they have the right, if they cannot afford the services of an attorney, to have one appointed, at public expense and without cost to them, to represent them before and during the questioning.[39]

Which many people know, thanks to cop shows, but that's no excuse to do it, and this guy might not know his rights. That they're refusing to inform him of his rights is just a (somewhat small) step towards totalitarianism.
>> No. 376521
>>376495
>>376520

Okay, stop guys. Just stop. I've seen more than a dozen people online misunderstand miranda rights and their function so I think it's time for me to step in.

If the police don't inform someone of their Miranda rights, all it means is whatever they say during the interrogation can't be used against them during trial. That's all Miranda does. It makes what you say after being detained and interrogated by police admissible to trial. Not reading Miranda rights and interrogating isn't some gross violation of your rights. If they attempt to use anything you said while not being mirandized in your trial, then that IS a violation of your rights. Even then there are some exceptions (spontaneous exclamation, public safety, etc), but these will be reviewed by a judge and any ruling he made on it would also be fodder for an appeal.
>> No. 376523
>>376521
It's not a gross violation, no, but it's just further evidence of the current administration's complete disregard for people's constitutionally guaranteed rights, such as the right to a speedy trial (see Bradley Manning) or the right to freedom from cruel and unusual punishment (see Guantanamo Bay) or the right to peaceably assemble (see Occupy Wall Street) or freedom of the press (OWS coverage by media organizations). And right to privacy of course, but at least that one's not literally law, just an interpretation of one of the ramifications of other laws decided by the courts.
>> No. 376528
I often concern myself with legal minutiae with relation to crazy motherfucking lunatics who don't deserve an ounce of sympathy or compassion.
>> No. 376529
>>376523
There are good arguments in favor of Miranda, and that the US needs to step up its game regarding human and civil rights. This instance is not one of them.

>>376528
>this
>> No. 376530
>>376521
>all it means is whatever they say during the interrogation can't be used against them during trial
That's a very roundabout way to say this guy won't be getting a trial...

>>376528
>what can be applies to crazy lunatics can also be applied to you, dumbass, because the legal system applies to all people equally
>lrn2precedent
Actually let Jean Luc teach you about precedent.

Picard's civil rights speechyoutube thumb
>> No. 376533
>>376528

Okay, and who deserves compassion? I'm not arguing that the Boston bomber does, but this is a shitty fucking attitude. It's a slippery slope, and people like to make people out to be "others" all the time. Who put you in charge of deciding who does and does not get compassion? Stop that shit. It's one of the ways people allow others to get away with bullshit.

I'm not speaking on this specific instance, but this attitude is an awful one to have and you should feel awful for having it.
>> No. 376534
>>376533
I thought it was fairly clear that he meant that attempted mass murderers do not deserve our sympathy or protection. they should be quickly tried and executed, not placed in soft and comfy padded cells with warm food and drink as a reward for, say trying to bomb a sporting event or murdering 80+ kids (good job Norway).
>> No. 376535
>>376534

Okay, and ignoring rights (again, not specifically referring to this instance, just his attitude) is not being sympathetic.

And get out of here with that Norway example. That would never happen in America. It's also not relevant. We aren't talking about sentencing.
>> No. 376544
>>376528
This sort of attitude is what makes evil possible in the first place. Once you start treating other human beings as less than human, even if in your own mind you are perfectly justified in doing so, that's what makes a person capable of hurting them in ways like this guy did. If you allow your sense of justice to lapse any time you think up a rationalization to stop caring about another person's, you're probably well on the path to evil yourself. Those who hunt monsters and all that.
>> No. 376546
>>376534
So this guy's death was perfectly fine, then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

Rights are just as important to protect the innocent from overzealous people as it is to cement the guilt of the offenders.
>> No. 376558
Justice isn't about compassion but equality of rights. Removing criminals rights is removing yourself the same rights.
>> No. 376561
Did you read what Miranda actually does and the limitations imposed on it at all, or is it just too comfortable up there on the soap box, complaining about mistreating the Marathon Bomber infringing on mah freedums?
Because if you did you'd notice what he did classified as pretty much waiving Miranda. As determined many years ago by the supreme court. It's not like he said something in a newspaper and the government imprisoned him for it.
>> No. 376565
>>376561

I don't know if you're talking to me or not, but I'm not referring to this instance, but rather calling out people on their bad attitude regarding the rights of others. It's not about standing on some soap box. It's a legitimate issue.
>> No. 376566
>>376565
Aren't you just ignoring the right of others not to be blown up by muslims?
>> No. 376568
>>376566

What.
>> No. 376570
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sandy Hill shooter didn't play video games with guns in them, and the Boston terrorist isn't Muslim.

So why are we still discussing Muslim terrrorists and whether or not video games cause violence if that wasn't even a possible factor?
>> No. 376571
>>376570
Both of the brothers were Muslims, unless you think Muslim=Arab.
>> No. 376572
>>376570
I'm almost positive that it's well documented the shooter did indeed like violent video games.
>> No. 376573
>>376572
I thought he was into Dynasty Warriors though, not FPS'es.

>>376571
Ah, nevermind then. I had originally heard differently. And no, I don't, I know well enough that that's not the case.
>> No. 376575
>>376572
Cowadooty, according to Wikipedia. I was under the impression he was a gamer, but that it was mostly WoW or the like that distracted him. Guess not.
>> No. 376577
>>376573
They're Chechen radicals so yeah. Kind of their whole shtick.
>> No. 376622
So I'm sitting here thinking, and I can't help but fume and chortle over the haphazard parallel.

The Chechen-American bombers managed to kill 3 people, wound and permanently damage hundreds (physical, mental) and it resulted in a manhunt and killing. This was done using pressure cookers, some schrapnel and carried out over a few years.

And down in West Texas, 14 people confirmed dead, up to 60 missing, 200 people injured, 133 were/are trapped in a nursing home for a while, 150 homes and pieces of real estate leveled, including a school, a nursing home and a hospital. A thousand times the legal amount of the substance was on the premises. Zoning laws were handwaved, regulation sat on their hands.

I hope the CIA/FBI have at least some sense of the harm this sort of thing does. It would fill me with glee if, one day, a drone strike might catch an industry captain by surprise and blow him to smithereens if he's guilty of allowing something like this to happen. Somebody needs to account, since somebody profitted from the crap. People who through their own misconduct or inaction lead to the destruction of property, persons and places of business through neglect and corruption deserve the same fate as we give conspirators on foreign soil.
>> No. 376636
File 13668475863.gif - (0.97MB , 400x225 , this thread4.gif )
376636
Terrorists play video games, that's suspicious isn't it? Rights don't apply to mass murderers, we should use all means necessary to kill them. Laws don't apply to a government during a manhunt for a mass murderer.

Although mass murder is ok when the government does it to hunt down industry captains. Because industry captains create things like fertilizer plants and video games. They also magically profit when their factories explode.

It's ok if the government declares martial law and accidentally shoots up people during a manhunt. Dorner was worst than holocaust. Law is whatever I think it should be at the moment. Your rights end where my feelings begin.

- t. Rametarin
>> No. 376648
>>376622
I've been thinking the exact same thing, minus the drone strike. Just fine the hell out of the motherfuckers, as money is apparently the only thing they understand.

>>376636
No.
>> No. 376657
get real, a factory exploding isn't the result of one man action. the whole place was going lazy in some part to have it happen. Wanting to put someone on the guillotine everytime something gets wrong is stupid and leads to nothing except more terror.
>> No. 376664
>>376622
The fertilizer plant blowing up seems more like a result of incompetency than corruption. Gonna have to agree with >>376657 here.

I somewhat agree with the rest of what you're saying, though certain rights always need to be upheld (like the right to not be blown away by a drone without trial. Not like citizens currently have this right, but still). It'd certainly be nice if all of the wealthy businessmen and politicians who frequently get away with blatantly illegal activities actually had the rug swept out from under them and received genuine punishment for their actions rather than a slap on the wrist, but that isn't likely to happen.

Illegal isn't even really the most accurate word for me to use here. The kind of people you're talking about, the ones who really run this country*, have enough power to usually regulate most of the restrictions they themselves will have to abide by. They wont be punished by the system because the system is rigged to be in their favor. A guy can steal a purse and go to jail, but someone else can exploit the loopholes of a law clearly designed to be exploitable for those in power, and financially ruin thousands of people while making a profit for himself without risk of consequence. Someone can detonate a bomb that kills a few people and then be shot to death, but a company board can call for a halt on production of important medication to artificially increase supply/demand and turn a greater profit, even if it kills roughly 120 people, and they'll all be better off for it.

What I'm saying is, these people will never be punished for what they do because they play by a different set of rules. Some means are punishable while others aren't, even if they lead to the same ends. Even when they are caught breaking the rules, they can usually pay the penalty fee pretty easily because it's usually a fine rather than jail time. Different punishments for different crimes, after all, and it just so happens to be that crimes the high upper class are more likely to commit generally have punishments that aren't too hard for them to deal with. It'd be nice if your scenario played out, all the seemingly invincible fatcats getting what they deserve, but outside of rare exceptions it doesn't and won't happen.

I apologize if this post isn't really constructive in any way, as I'm kind of stating the obvious without suggesting any solutions, but I don't think there really are any. Any anger I had about this evaporated into a pessimistic apathy long ago, at this point I'm just kind of voicing my thoughts.

*By which I mean the U.S. of A. Because let's be honest, these threads are pretty much always about U.S. politics. Do people outside the U.S. even browse these threads? I never seem to see talk about the affairs of any other country, unless it's in relation to the U.S.
>> No. 376678
>>376664
>What I'm saying is, these people will never be punished for what they do because they play by a different set of rules.

That's why We The People need to work on changing those rules. I know sometimes it seems futile, but we should at least try.

>Even when they are caught breaking the rules, they can usually pay the penalty fee pretty easily because it's usually a fine rather than jail time.

This is why I think fines should be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars. A couple thou is barely a slap on the wrist for many huge conglomerates these days, like the oil companies.
>> No. 376697
>>376664
No. It was incompetency, greed and neglect. The zoning board was complacent in what was a foul placement of real estate, where all the little people live and work and play, around an industrial facility. This was botching and neglect and disgusting mismanagement on many levels, from industry down to county to district, and they had about one thousand times the amount of the shit on site that they legally should have had. If they obeyed the regulations, that they should've been scared to death of violating in the first place, forty to sixty people might not be dead or missing right now, and Texas wouldn't have suffered the equivalent of a 2.0 earthquake.

Industries and companies should be terrified to death of doing shit like this. Often they aren't even afraid of classical and typical outrageous American lawsuits against the companies for outrageous sums of money, because they'll be given access to plea bargains that'll give them a pittance of a penalty and it won't even stick on their permanent record. This is what Rand Paul was really filibustering against. He doesn't care about armed drones gunning down any Tom Dick and Harry. He's more concerned about them being used against Fred, Charles, David and William Koch.
Rand Paul- It's OK To Kill U.S…youtube thumb
>> No. 376701
>>376678
>That's why We The People need to work on changing those rules. I know sometimes it seems futile, but we should at least try.

you are literally 50 years too late for that. The people that profits from the current state locked themselves away from any legal problem people like you could give them. Judges and justice in general are run in closed social circle with no way in if they don't want you in.
>> No. 376702
>>376701
I think the next stage is either armed rebellion, or a charismatic leader arrives to guide people. It depends on what stage of the myth we're in.
>> No. 376707
>>376664
>The fertilizer plant blowing up seems more like a result of incompetency than corruption.
As the corollary to Hanlon's Razor states, "Sufficiently advanced ignorance is indistinguishable from malice." Replace "incompetence" and "corruption" here and the same argument applies.

People who lobby as hard for deregulation (or hamstringing regulators so that they can't inspect people who are breaking the law in the first place) as the Tea Party in Texas so that businesses can get away with shit like this, whether it's because they're so ignorant/incompetent that they don't know stuff like this might happen or because they're so corrupt that they think stuff like this is a fair price to pay, are equally unacceptable decision-makers, and equally responsible for the deaths they bring about because of it.

Keep in mind, these things are or at least were very much illegal, and they did have to abide by these rules....until the Tea Party took control. Don't allow yourself to be convinced that stuff has always been this way and that the existential inertia is too great to beat. All it takes is getting people in office who will fight back against the "bad ol' government is only trying to hurt honest businessmen" flavor of corporate libertarians who've been slowly taking over under the guise of fighting for the common man. Those guys are not the majority, and they are not entrenched so deep they can't be weeded out.
>> No. 376712
File 136693527656.png - (138.09KB , 500x281 , tumblr_m5efh22bRe1qhy4zb.png )
376712
>>376701
>The people that profits from the current state locked themselves away from any legal problem people like you could give them. Judges and justice in general are run in closed social circle with no way in if they don't want you in.

So true. It's mainly because we have allowed the a corrupt and corporate dominated Congress, presidency and US supreme Court to make decision for us.

Until we overthrow the corporate state, there is no way to defeat the system by legal means.

>>376702
>I think the next stage is either armed rebellion, or a charismatic leader arrives to guide people.

Until the state resorts to violence/murder we shouldn't resort to armed rebellion. I wish a charismatic leader could come out of OWS and throw the oligarchy.
>> No. 376713
File 136693605889.jpg - (243.90KB , 500x750 , tumblr_mhtjultP7l1rs7t8go1_500.jpg )
376713
==ENDA introduced with bipartisan backing==

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/04/25/17915739-enda-introduced-with-bipartisan-backing?lite

>The legislation has been pending for nearly two decades, but in this Congress, ENDA will have more support than ever before. The full list of cosponsors is not yet available online, but Jared Polis' press release points to bipartisan backing in both chambers: in addition to the many Democrats backing ENDA, the bill has also drawn the support of a few Republicans: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (Fla.) in the House, and Mark Kirk (Ill.) and Susan Collins (Maine) in the Senate.

In case you don't know what ENDA is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENDA

I checked my Republican congressmans voting record. He voted for the ENDA back in 2007. Does your Congresman/women support it?
>> No. 376714
>>376713
How is that not already a law?
>> No. 376718
File 136693890026.png - (621.58KB , 720x480 , ep20-1358.png )
376718
>>376714
>How is that not already a law?

Congress is about 20 to 30 years behind the American public opinion. Must I remind you that Congress rejected background checks which over 90% of Americans support. Just because the majority of Americans support something doesn't mean Congress does.

http://www.freedomtowork.org/?page_id=39

>Nearly three-fourths of voters (73 percent) support protecting gay and transgender people from workplace discrimination. This support cuts across political party affiliation, with 81 percent of Democrats, 74 percent of independents, and 66 percent of Republicans supporting workplace nondiscrimination laws for LGBT people.

Let me give you example:

IN 1993, the year Congress enacted DADT in the military, polls showed a majority of Americans support open serve of LGBT soldiers. It wasn't until Dec. 2010 that Congress repealed that law.

In 1996, the US senate tried to pass the ENDA, but it failed by just one vote.(49 - 50) Fast forward to 2007, when the House of Hypersensitive passed the ENDA, which George W. Bush said he would veto if it got to his desk. It never made it out of Congress.

Now we can pass the ENDA. I think it can happen in this Congress because we have the votes for it. We just need it out of the committees, pass both house and senate and Obama and sign it.
>> No. 376720
>>376714
Because it takes away the right of homophobes to discriminate against teh gays.
>> No. 376723
File 136694049012.png - (1.10MB , 2000x1268 , 2000px-US_counties_and_cities_with_sexual_orientat.png )
376723
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_employment_discrimination_in_the_United_States#Local_law

Here are are the states and cities that ban firing people in the workplace who are LGBT.
>> No. 376727
>>376723
Does this mean "you cannot fire someone for being gay", or "if someone is gay, you can't fire them at all for any reason"?
>> No. 376728
>>376720
It also prevents them from firing them for perfectly legitimate reasons. All the employee has to do is complain about it.
>> No. 376730
>>376728
That happens a lot less than discriminatory firing, and just because someone complains about being unjustly fired due to their sexuality/gender identity doesn't mean they automatically get compensation.

If you don't think this law is ok because it grants protection that a very small minority of fired people may use as leverage to get more money, you're a pretty disgusting person imo.
>> No. 376731
>>376728
>It also prevents them from firing them for perfectly legitimate reasons. All the employee has to do is complain about it.

No, that's not how it works. Stop being dense.
>> No. 376732
>>376730
>If you don't think this law is ok because it grants protection that a very small minority of fired people may use as leverage to get more money, you're a pretty disgusting person imo.
Won't someone please think of the poor, constantly put-upon CEO's? Don't CEO's in this country put up with enough already, being expected to pay their employees living wages, sell things to customers at prices the customers are willing to pay, and not put radium in children's breakfast cereal? Now they have to be careful not to give the impression of being the sort of person who would fire someone for bigoted reasons, too? When's it going to end?!
>> No. 376734
File 136694664294.jpg - (206.41KB , 800x1120 , 63663-avatar-the-last-airbender-zuko-and-katara.jpg )
376734
>>376728
>It also prevents them from firing them for perfectly legitimate reasons.

That's bs and you know it.

>>376727
>Does this mean "you cannot fire someone for being gay", or "if someone is gay, you can't fire them at all for any reason"?

You cannot fire someone for being gay. There is a federal law banning firing someone for their race, religion, sex, disability, but we don't have sexual orientation or gender identity as well. It's pretty important for me because of my sexuality. In my state, I can be fired for my job for being gay. I choose a job from a company that protects sexual orientation in the work place though.
>> No. 376735
I think the controversy over this has less to do with homophobes, and more the concern over LGBT being considered a mental disorder.
>> No. 376739
File 136694890029.png - (398.86KB , 720x480 , ep53-501.png )
376739
>>376735
>and more the concern over LGBT being considered a mental disorder.

What do you mean?
>> No. 376744
>>376735
I haven't seen that. Most of the opposition seems to be agreeing with this nitwit >>376728. What is being said about sexual orientation and psychological disorders?

Unless you mean the new DSM and its inclusion of gender identity disorder, which is unrelated to ENDA as far as I'm aware? It is a physical intersex condition where the body's sex is at odds with how the brain has developed, and solidifying it as a medical disorder in the DSM can help patients get the treatment they need to live their lives without dysphoria clogging up their thoughts. Psychologists used to think--and a depressingly large amount still do--that gender identity is learned, which has caused a lot of grief.
>> No. 376749
>>376744
The issue, I think, is that people who are intersex or trans or sympathizers, would prefer it not be seen as a disorder or classified as anything but "just another state of being, like being left handed" at all. Which is kind of absurd.
>> No. 376750
>>376735
No matter how you see it, it's never gonna be admitted as normal. either it's a learned behaviour, or you are "born with it" which by definition means it's a genetic condition.
I think people should just accept being different at some point. sexuality is a really minor part of your life after all, so nobody cares what makes you hard or wet.
>> No. 376752
>>376750
>sexuality is a really minor part of your life after all, so nobody cares what makes you hard or wet.
Wouldn't that be something?
>> No. 376754
Our culture is pretty much torn between being sex-obsessed and being humongous prudes.
>> No. 376757
>>376749
If you consider being a man with a completely feminised body (or vice versa) "just another state of being" you aren't transgender. The whole thing about being trans is that your body doesn't make sense to your brain so you feel a constant dissonance known as gender dysphoria. It isn't about other people accepting that you're a guy so much as that you are physically incapable of reconciling your gender identity with your body and its functions. It hurts, and it requires procedures such as hormone therapy to dissipate for most people. This is who the DSM designation is for, so they have better access to treatment options, because it IS a disorder that they DO need help with. If, say, schizophrenia was removed from the DSM because "it's just like being left-handed," would the public be any more willing to treat someone with schizophrenia as an equal? Fuck no.

Studies also show that people who believe that it's an inborn medical condition are more accepting of transgender people than others who think it's a choice/you can be socialised differently/it's not physical. It's the same for homosexuality, but homosexuality should not be recognised as a disorder since it's not something that causes intrinsic emotional pain and is generally a completely harmless abberation from the norm--it really IS like being left-handed. Unlike gender dysphoria. The T shouldn't really be lumped in with LGBT because not only does the LGB part tend to drown it out, it's just a completely different beast. It being lumped in under the same umbrella as sexual orientation might be giving the public the wrong idea of what it means to be transgender.
>> No. 376758
File 136696847729.png - (382.45KB , 720x480 , ep26-260.png )
376758
>>376757
>It being lumped in under the same umbrella as sexual orientation

Expect it isn't. It's classified as gender identity under the law while sexual orientation is classified as a different category. The ENDA covers both sexual orientation and gender identity.

Anyway I'm really hoping the ENDA passes so it can protect gays and bisexuals like me and my boyfriend in the workplace.
>> No. 376764
>>376754
"Our culture" is a convenient vague imaginary monster that helps every side putting claims in the news based on nothing.
>> No. 376765
>>376764
Way to miss the point.
>> No. 376766
>>376734
Okay, good. I'm not out yet, but I asked because I don't want to be fired, should I tell anyone.
>> No. 376767
>>376765
The only point I see is a blanket statement hidden with a vague word and aggressivity.
>> No. 376768
File 136698606472.jpg - (9.56KB , 227x249 , 1365655788461.jpg )
376768
>One nation under God
>expecting this to pass, ever
>> No. 376777
File 136700090274.jpg - (83.85KB , 400x400 , christopherdorner.jpg )
376777
>>376528
>>376529
>I often concern myself with legal minutiae with relation to crazy motherfucking lunatics who don't deserve an ounce of sympathy or compassion.
You should, fool.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/04/25/boston-bombing-social-media-student-brown-university-reddit/2112309/?csp=fbfanpage

This is why.
>> No. 376780
>>376757
The problem I foresee happening is that a lot of transexual people will not be happy at the idea that what they're suffering is a disorder of the mind, but they want it defined that it's their body that is the problem, if anything. So the idea that what they're experiencing is a disease of the mind upsets them, as it de-legitimizes the mentality that transexuality is completely normal and should not be thought of as a a disorder, but just another totally valid state of being- And if anything, they want more weight given to the idea you can legitimately be born into the wrong body. They don't want it to be considered wrongness of mind, because to their minds, it's self-evident that their body is the odd man out here. And so, their preferred interpretation is that chromosomes and physical sex take a backseat to how they feel about it. Not validating that point of view kind of defeats the layout they like and might prevent them from reaching the conclusion they prefer in society, as it advances.
>> No. 376782
>>376777

I'm pretty sure he was dead before the bombings even happened.

That being said, you are entirely right about caring. People should.
>> No. 376785
>>376780
Most transsexual people I know see it as a medical condition, like a physical problem and not mental. However, for it to be treated medically and covered by insurance it needs to be on the books <i>somewhere</i> and currently the DSM is the only place it has right now.
>> No. 376787
>>376785
It's better for it to be thought of as a condition of the body because hormone therapy and sex reassignment is a whole hell of a lot easier and safer than rewiring and changing the shape of the brain. You can't change how a person thinks of themselves since gender identity is more of a base instinct than anything else, but you can change how they look.
>> No. 376789
>>376787
and I agree with that, I was more.. not playing devils advocate? Something else. Hrm. There's a term for it, but it's either escaped or I don't know it.
>> No. 376790
>>376787
It's not that those sort of brain issues are hard to heal, just that it requires actual will to improve, which usually isn't happening since people and society makes every effort possible to comfort you in your misery to begin with. Sometime, feeling like shit actually ends up being more comfortable than the idea of change.
>> No. 376799
>>376790
You're that tinfoil hat guy from the other thread, aren't you. You can't will yourself into not having a chemical imbalance or a structural problem within your brain, you dumb asshole.
>> No. 376800
>>376799
I think people like him just get confused by the fact that we use the word "depressed" even when we're talking about just feeling bummed, which leads him to think that capital-d-Depression can be fought with happy thoughts and ice cream the way lower-case-d-depression can, and it's lead him to believe that all chemical imbalances are also just people being pussies instead of actually needing help.
>> No. 376801
>>376799
^This.
>> No. 376802
>>376800

Very problematic. So here's another discussion for this topic.

How do we educate people like this? I propose putting it in the high school curriculum somewhere. Hopefully that reaches the most people. Despite the fact that I'm not a psych major, I didn't learn about all this stuff until I finished my gen eds here at school. I could have easily missed a class that talked about the human mind!
>> No. 376803
>>376802
This depends on two things. The first is if it's ignorance. The second on if it's willful ignorance (stupidity.)
Not knowing the truth is its own thing. You can correct ignorance with relaying how something actually works. With science. And proofs. It is true that people are pretty much biological robots, and psychiatry is about tinkering with peoples inherently malformed or misfiring neurological makeup, and the idea that you can have mental problems while not dying of cancer or being poisoned is a hard subject for a lot of people to grasp. But it can be fixed with facts.
Then you're faced with the people who believe this is an impossibility, so instead embrace the notion that you can do anything if you just put your willpower to it. Have an obsessive compulsion? Clearly you just aren't trying hard enough. Tourettes syndrome? You just lack self control. Autistic? You're just an assholic misbehavor- maybe being paddled across the ass and punished will learn you how to act normal. It's true that there are instances and situations in which the problem can be corrected by behavioral and cognitive therapies, due to brain plasticity n'stuff, but that doesn't mean it all can or we even know the proper way to do it yet.

The fact that we have assholes pusing pills and overperscribing them to folks who don't need it, and people on the other side who point at this and go, "See? Proof ALLL drugs are just a bandage for weak minds!" just make the discussion table a shit covered wrestling match.
>> No. 376804
>>376802
>>376800
Use "depressed" only for Depression, and use a synonym for people who are just "bummed".
>> No. 376806
>>376803
Yeah, the pill-pushers definitely aren't helping people understand the fact that some individuals legitimately NEED their medication to help them live a normal life. But the damn pharmaceutical companies are out of control, just like every other major company nowadays, it seems.

>>376804
Or, since it's already become part of people's everyday speech, which is harder to change, just use capital-D "Depression" in writing, and "Clinical Depression" in conversation.
>> No. 376991
File 136737892928.jpg - (81.04KB , 812x983 , zukaang__heartbeat_by_ningyo_mizu-d45tlne.jpg )
376991
Guys this gay thing is getting huge. First openly gay NBA player and now this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/onpolitics/2013/04/30/paul-ryan-gay-adoption/2124877/

>GOP Rep. Paul Ryan reportedly has changed his views and now says he believes gay couples should be able to adopt children. Asked at a town-hall-style meeting Monday in Wisconsin about the issue, Ryan said he would "vote differently these days" and still opposes gay marriage. In 1999, the congressman voted in favor of banning same-sex couples in the District of Columbia from adopting.

>"I do believe that if there are children who are orphans who do not have a loving person or couple ... I think if a person wants to love and raise a child, they ought to be able to do that. Period. I would vote that way," Ryan says, according to video posted on the liberal Think Progress website. In the 2012 presidential campaign, GOP nominee Mitt Romney said he supported gay adoption but at the time it was not known where Ryan, his running mate, stood on the issue beyond his 1999 vote.

>On the issue of gay marriage, Ryan repeated at the meeting that he believes "marriage is between a man and a woman. We just respectfully disagree on the issue." There has been heightened interest in gay marriage since the Supreme Court heard challenges on two related cases in March. Ryan said at the meeting that if the justices determine that the federal Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional, then he believes it will become a "federalism" issue for states to decide. WKOW-TV, the ABC affiliate in Madison, Wis., said Ryan's gay-adoption comment was the "biggest surprise of the afternoon" but it did not post tape of his comments. Ryan apparently changed his mind on the issue years ago, but the TV station said this is the first time he has talked about it publicly.
>> No. 376994
>>376991
I think this is part of them trying to just get more voters. When they get poor results in 2014 they'll go right back to "fuck the gays and the minorities and the women!"
>> No. 376995
>>376991
Strangely, many people against gay marriage are against it because of the danger that they'd be able to adopt children, and indoctrinate them to be gay, too.
>> No. 376997
I'm in the boat that doesn't want gay adoption.

I don't care how womanly your thought processes are, you're both still men. Kids with only one parent always end up being fucked up in the head.
>> No. 376998
>>376997
But they DO have two parents. They just don't have a female parent.
>> No. 376999
>>376998
You say that like it's any different.
>> No. 377000
To me, all you need to be a parent is to be able to balance life stuff (job, taxes) with being caring and understanding. And a decent cook. Has nothing to do with being "feminine" or "masculine". Hell, there's plenty of kids out there with masculine moms and feminine dads, and they turn out alright.
>> No. 377001
>>376997
2 parents > 0 parents > 1 Parents?
>> No. 377004
>>376999
It....is? Like, I mean, objectively and verifiably. You don't have a leg to stand on in this. Having two parents means one can watch you while the other is at work. It means at least one of them can generally make it to your dance recitals or baseball games or whatever. It means they've got two incomes with which to support you for as long as you remain a parasite. It means two perspectives on the things they teach you. None of that shit is gender-specific. The only grounds on which you could conceivably say the kids with two parents of the same sex are at a disadvantage is stuff like....a little girl with two dads is not going to have a parent who knows what it's like to menstruate for the first time or what to look for when shopping for bras, or something.
>> No. 377005
>>376997
>kids with one parent always end up being fucked in the head
This is a problem moreso with resources and finance than the mental maturity or acuity of the parent. Gay parents are unconventional, but unless they move some place and isolate the kid from contact with conventional families, they aren't going to grow up without experiencing knowledge of what a conventional set of parents is like. Worst comes to worst, they could always found a gay kibbutz.
>> No. 377008
File 136739922554.png - (394.43KB , 720x480 , ep53-64.png )
377008
>>376995
>Strangely, many people against gay marriage are against it because of the danger that they'd be able to adopt children,

I thought it was about muh traditional marriage bullshit it.

>>376997
>I'm in the boat that doesn't want gay adoption.

What's it like being a bigot? What gives you the right to tell me and my boyfriend that we can't adopt children?

>I don't care how womanly your thought processes are, you're both still men.

Funny how you mention only men, but not lesbians. So you are sexist too.

>Kids with only one parent always end up being fucked up in the head.

Source? Also would you prefer children being raised in horrible foster care, or a loving same-sex couple house hold?
>> No. 377010
Anecdotes are a bad way to argue but, I know a lot of people who came from single parent homes. Most of them grew up well anyway--they have stable lives and good relationships. The ones who didn't had a fucked up parent, or got stuck in the middle of a nasty divorce. Raising a child is certainly easier when there are two people to take care of them, but I don't think a child is automatically worse off for only having one. If you suck as a single parent you probably would suck as a married parent too, your suckiness might just matter less because sometimes your spouse can pick up the slack. Or because horrible people tend to come in pairs, your spouse might be just as bad and your kid will be way more messed in the head than if you had no contact whatsoever with his other parent. And I think a lot of it comes down to whether you should have had a kid in the first place given your health, finances and support network. As long as you have adequate amounts of those, the children you raise will probably turn out pretty well, regardless of how many parents they have or the gender of those parents.

Don't adoption agencies check for that stuff? They will not give a baby to be raised by a drug-addled couple who can't afford it. And everyone who goes to an adoption agency definitely WANTS a child. That fact alone makes gay couples looking to adopt incomparable to Bad Single Parents because like 80% (I am being conservative) of Bad Single Parents are awful because they were unwillingly saddled with a baby.
>> No. 377011
>>376997
>Kids with only one parent always end up being fucked up in the head.

As someone who knows a lot of people raised by hard-working single parents who turned out just fine, fuck you. And kids raised by gay parents will turn out just as good or bad as they will with straight parents or single parents.

>>377008
I mostly agree with your arguments, but will you PLEASE stop with the literal avatarfagging? Seriously, it's just annoying and distracting. You like Avatar? Come join us on +/a/, that's what it's there for. You wanna talk politics? You don't need to post a damn image every single time.
>> No. 377013
>>377011
> but will you PLEASE stop with the literal avatarfagging? You don't need to post a damn image every single time.

Alright I'll stop for now. I do enough of that on the other chan anyway.
>> No. 377014
>>377013
Thanks.
>> No. 377015
>>376997
I've only got a ma, been that way since just after I learned to pee standing up(that's not a silly estimate, that's the last memory I have of my dad, him telling me how to piss), and while I'm not exactly an ideal individual, most of my problems are genetic.
That is to say, shit I'd still be dealing with even if I had been raised by two parents.
So, y'know.
Yeah.
>> No. 377019
I think Paul Ryan came in favor of same-sex couples adopting and civil unions because he's appearing to run in 2016 and wants to be a moderate on social issues. That's why he came out for stuff like this and immigration reform. What do you think?
>> No. 377027
>>377008
>What's it like being a bigot? What gives you the right to tell me and my boyfriend that we can't adopt children?
What's it like being a strawman? I don't have the right to say you can't, because I don't have the power. I do however have the right to speak my mind, and you need to get over that concept.
>Funny how you mention only men, but not
lesbians. So you are sexist too.
No strawman, because I was speaking directly to YOU.
>Also would you prefer children being raised in horrible foster care, or a loving same-sex couple house hold?
First of all that's a baited, biased question. Second I would prefer neither.

Also I love how you need me to provide a source for one-parent children typically being abnormal but you apparently don't need to give a source for foster home care typically being horrible.
>> No. 377029
>>377027

>this entire post

top lel
>> No. 377037
>>377008
Well, yeah. There are two camps on it. Aren't there always, though?
Camp 1: The Spirit.
This group try to defend religion's niche in the socio-political middle ground of America. They ideally want a society that answers to the church, and they want the church to be the adjudicator of what marriage is, how it's defined, who it applies to, and by extension keep it from applying to anything but this narrow definition. Who is this group, and why does their opinion matter?.. It doesn't matter. That's just it. It's a middleman, because marriage is legally defined as a distinct entity in the US. It has no church involvement unless you want to involve the church, and the church wants society to believe marriage is illegitimate without the church. In this way it creates a boogyman out of a phenomenon like homosexuality to make itself seem important or necessary, and once important, deprive its enemies legitimacy. The Spirit Camp are all about retaining religion's assumed importance in the American system. If the mask on the boogyman fell away, they would seem less important.
They may not like the idea of homosexuals or homosexual adoption of kids, but they'd rather retain their importance as a construct in society than have their authority marginalized. So the concession of gay adoption but no gay marriage seems like a way for this camp to placate opposition and maintain control.

Camp 2: The Flesh.
Almost indistinguishable from the first camp, only their focus is less on the religious importance, so much as religion being a means to an end. They disagree with homosexuality, and if they had their way, homosexuals would be seen as people you could punish for being wrong. Their priority is to prevent the legal access of homosexuals from things like, say, gay adoption, under the belief homosexuals would be more likely to raise gay kids. This group sees marriage as a means to prevent homosexuals from marrying, but they care less about the church's role so much as they care about marriage being an island that doesn't allow homosexuals in, and thus does not allow them easier access to gay adoption. They may be more in favor of civil union, because civil union might still give them the control to restrict privileges married couples enjoy from civily unioned gay couples.

Both methods are just two ways to do the same thing. Deprive, marginalize, control. Some prefer civil union, some prefer to just let gays adopt. Ryan taking the "gays can adopt" stance is a good sign, because he has near to no moves left. Though his strategy might be to amend that only married coupled can adopt, thus negating the legality of gay or even single-straight parent adoption.
>> No. 377038
>>377027

i know you're just trolling so i shouldn't even respond to your ridiculous posts but here we are

http://www.fixcas.com/scholar/impact.pdf
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/02/19/foster-care-cp.html
http://www.homelesshub.ca/topics/foster-care-237.aspx

the foster system is a mess. many kids shuttled into foster homes come with special problems and don't receive the amount of care they need, and since many aren't ever adopted, they "graduate" from the foster program at 18 with no family and no support. a foster family is not YOUR family. they don't have to love you and treat you as their own, they just have to put up with you and they get money for it. having some clarity about your situation can be pretty damaging, even for a mentally healthy kid.

that's if child & family services just doesn't straight up forget about you. the problems with foster care and cfs is rehashed on the news every few weeks here because of the phoenix sinclair inquiry. she was a little girl who was brutally murdered by her mother and her mother's then-boyfriend while the cfs was supposed to be watching over her. when she was placed into foster care, she was still in a dangerous home, just *less* dangerous than the one she originally came from. they didn't check up on her like they should have and in a stunningly incompetent move they decided her mom was like, maybe more ok than before or whatever, so they moved her back in and closed her file. then she was beaten to death on a concrete basement floor. her case is extreme, of course, but there are many kids like her being placed in bad homes and being abused or neglected while cfs does fucking nothing because those homes are apparently "good enough" and the abuse slips under their radar.

in conclusion shut the fuck up
>> No. 377065
>>376997
Here, watch this video and then tell me how bad gay adoption really is.

An Open Letter from a same-sex…youtube thumb
>> No. 377075
>Today's May Day
>Not one single fucking post about Socialism, Communism, or anything of the kind
Step.
Your.
Game.
Up.
The Internationale in Englishyoutube thumb
>> No. 377095
>>377027
>What's it like being a strawman?

I know you are a troll I just can't stand your arrogance.

>I don't have the right to say you can't, because I don't have the power.

So if you did have the power you would deny me and my boyfriend access to adopt children because of our sexual orientation?

>I do however have the right to speak my mind, and you need to get over that concept.

I also have the right to speak my mind, so when you speak your mind about gay adoption, I have the right to speak my mind and call you a bigot.

>No strawman, because I was speaking directly to YOU.

You where?

You where not replying to any of my posts in your first post:

>>376997

>First of all that's a baited, biased question. Second I would prefer neither.

Not baited, not biased. You just can't accept reality. Face it there is going to be single parents raising kids, gay couples raising kids, etc. There is nothing wrong with it. Gay neighborhoods is most urban areas tend to be the nicest cleanest places of those cities.

Most Americans support gay adoption. (61%)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/159272/americans-favor-rights-gays-lesbians-inherit-adopt.aspx
>> No. 377101
>Bob Davis
good lord
>> No. 377127
File 136750147626.png - (170.93KB , 301x414 , tumblr_mm4f4qxdQ11qcf2yso1_400.png )
377127
>Screenshot of an image that Middle Tennessee Commissioner Barry West posted on Facebook.

>He responded in an email to The Tennessean: “No I did not Twitter this … no I did not create this picture … yes I shared it … so why am I being singled out?”
>> No. 377128
>>377095
>Gay neighborhoods is most urban areas tend to be the nicest cleanest places of those cities.

Not him but you sound like you're trying to argue gays are the superior human beings or some shit.
>> No. 377147
>>377127
Gee, I wonder fucking why?

>>377128
You mean they're not?
>> No. 377154
>>377128

They're not superior human beings.

They're just superior neighbors.
>> No. 377158
>Gay neighborhoods is most urban areas tend to be the nicest cleanest places of those cities.
>Not him but you sound like you're trying to argue gays are the superior human beings or some shit.

You're confusing correlation with causation. The most run down urban areas tend to be the ones filled with persons who are low-income, racial minorities, and in gangs. All these are groups known for being violently homophobic. Any gay person who didn't want to end up getting strung up a tree with a baseball bat up his ass would move the fuck away as soon as possible.

Also, since men tend to earn more than women, and many gay men are in white collar jobs, two gay men will — on average — earn more than a straight man and women. Thus, male homosexuals have higher incomes, and can afford to live in nicer neighborhoods. Also, homosexuals cannot accidentally have a child; their only method is going through the VERY strict adoption process.

Does this mean that gays are superior? No. Does this mean that the average gay family unit will be a more stable, happy, and supportive environment for a child to grow up in than the average straight family unit? ABSOLUTELY.
>> No. 377164
>>377158
>who are low-income, racial minorities, and in gangs. All these are groups known for being violently homophobic
Oh yeah, hahaha, I forgot rich white people love gays!
>> No. 377167
>>377128

>Not him but you sound like you're trying to argue gays are the superior human beings or some shit.

Never said that. However when it comes keeping ourselfs in shape and incarceration rapes, I think heteros need to step up their game.

>>377158
> racial minorities,

Not true:

>Black Gays Make Up Largest Share Of LGBT Community, Survey Shows

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/19/black-gays-lgbt-community_n_1989859.html

Go to any huge city and you will find huge pockets of non-white LGBTs population like in Atlanta, Houston, Washington D.C. My gay boyfriend is Haitian too btw.

>Does this mean that the average gay family unit will be a more stable, happy, and supportive environment for a child to grow up in than the average straight family unit?

Yet for some reason Republicans seem sted fast against gays adopting benefits and legal spousal rights.
>> No. 377169
>>377158
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification#Gay_and_lesbian_people
>> No. 377171
>>377169
Gentrification is so gay.
>> No. 377172
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/guns-for-kids/

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/05/02/1953621/guns-for-kids/

http://news.sky.com/story/1085554/boy-5-kills-sister-2-with-childrens-rifle

>making guns for kids

How the fuck is this even legal? We have age limits for driving, voting, and drinking, but not deadly weapons? What the fuck, people? And from that last article

>"It was God's will. It was her time to go I guess?"

No, you stupid woman. Irresponsible parents give a fucking five year old a loaded weapon, somehow thinking this is a good idea, thanks to our insane gun-loving culture, then leave him alone with it. That's called gross fucking negligence. Is anyone surprised this happened? When is it going to stop?
>> No. 377177
>>377172
Hey, you want to see something even more upsetting?

3D Printed Guns (Documentary)youtube thumb
>> No. 377182
>>377177
Oh, I know about that too, and YES I MAD.
>> No. 377189
>>377172
>How the fuck is this even legal? We have age limits for driving, voting, and drinking, but not deadly weapons? What the fuck, people?

Because muh 2nd amendment
>> No. 377190
>>377189
Because NRA.
>> No. 377193
>>377177
I'm actually a bit excited about 3D Printed Guns for a very special reason:

They're going to be the proof that the NRA is not fighting for people's "gun rights," they're fighting for gun manufacturers and salesmen's profit margins. Eventually congress is going to start trying to control 3D Printed firearms, and if the NRA is really about unrestricted gun rights, they would fight for people's rights to print out guns for free.

But they're not going to do that. They're going to fight tooth and nail to get that shit outlawed because it makes it to where people don't have to pay the people they actually represent for their firearms anymore. It's going to be a hilarious example of epic backpeddling, and I'm looking forward to laughing at it.
>> No. 377195
>>377193
Well, I suppose it can't do any more harm than the NRA.
>> No. 377203
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

I think the most frustrating thing about the gun debate is you can't look pro-gun without opponents automatically turning off and lumping you in with the absurd culture of Obama targeting, "Prepare for the Rapture"ing crazies they usually have shouting matches with. I like the way my state handles gun rights and regulations.

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_me_2.htm
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

in 2010, 28% of all homicides were knife related in my state. 42% was by firearm.

How my little section of the states does its business with guns appears to work. But the gun culture here is also different. It's not the laws themselves that ensure proper punishment and a lack of access, it's the culture and the people. It's the predisposition to drugs, the association to gang violence, the unknown effects of pollution on our bodies and minds. Even the climate.

It makes me so angry that there's almost nothing I can do or say to shape the pro side of the debate, because the people with money and the lobby and the industries have already decided to frame the opposition to gun control measures. The argument of philosophy and gun culture is pretty much out of my or any other reasonable persons hands. So, the liberals, the ones who faced with the opposition that they are, might feel it's totally fine to ban or abolish all firearms, get to argue with the god damned racists, religious loonies and Captain Planet-esque industrial villains who want Castle Doctrine solely to civilian-police gated communities from dangerous, iced tea wielding negros.

I feel like I'm stuck between an anarchist who is abusing everybody and bringing their rights into question, and a nanny that wants to reel the anarchist in by reeling everybody in, that wouldn't mind at all if the right was abolished.
>> No. 377212
Aaaand Israel just started shit with Syria.
>> No. 377215
>>377212
>Aaaand Israel just started shit with Syria.

So when is the united states going to issue a resolution condemning Israel's aggressive attack on a neighboring country?
>> No. 377216
>>377215
Ahhhhhhhhhahahahahaha.

More like America issues a document condemning Syria for provoking its neighbor.
>> No. 377218
>>377203
Actually, I consider myself to be somewhat moderate when it comes to gun issues. I just want stricter safety laws, background checks, and reasonable restrictions on high-powered/high-capacity weapons. There's room for people like us in this debate.
>> No. 377221
>>377218
From what I've been reading, the definition of high powered/high capacity weapons does already do well to restrict the power of weapons. There are 'classes'. The higher up the weapon class, the more accountability you need with the federal government to have it. A lot of high powered weapons already have loops you need to jump through.

But I do believe we need better background checks. Some of the things that arbitrarily make a rifle an 'assault' rifle is not too unlike focusing on kids wearing baggy clothes and listening to rock music as signs of a bad kid. And that kind of legislation, while well meaning and I wholly understand the desire for it, doesn't substantially do anything to make anybody safer.

The funny thing is if we expanded our mental health system, the republicans and conspiracy wonks would whine about how much it focuses on southern staters and people who "just happen" to be religious survivalists. But this is a conversation we need to have in this country, and I would rather not have our rights to wield a weapon be a casualty if regular people have to choose between the psychopaths or the guys that are trying to disarm the psychopaths.
>> No. 377234
>>377218

Many of the right argue we need guns to protect us from the oppressive state. However I argue a gun will do no good against the US military, against drones, against nuclear weapons. Our civil liberties have been taken away by NDAA, FISA, Patriot Act, etc. and yet Americans still have a shit load of guns.

What we need is for the left wing to organize, the Green Party, OWS, anarchists, etc. to united in solidarity in civil disobedience to the corporate state. Guns and violence won't do us any good. The corporate state knows that there are more of us, so they are trying to strengthen the police state.
>> No. 377243
Personally the gun control debate has always felt hollow to me, because it only really pops up as an issue whenever it's politically convenient for its proponents (If they cared so much about "gun crime", why does places like Chicago still have a problem with it?). And any real discussion on improving our mental health system might as well be considered poison in most political circles at this point.

>>377234
The thing is, drones and nukes don't hold forts. They're used to obliterate them. Men with guns on the ground hold forts, and if Vietnam and the Middle East taught us anything, artillery and weapons alone do not guarantee dominance when you're occupying territory. Especially when you're taking over your own country.
>> No. 377253
>>377221

A good start would be involuntary conservatorship reform. In CA at least, you can only be involuntarily committed in the short term (5150'd) if you're posing an immediate threat to yourself or others, or "gravely mentally disabled", which means unable to provide for food, clothing, or shelter. To get long-term committed, you need a jury to decide, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you have a mental illness as defined by the DSM, and that, because of it, you are "gravely mentally disabled". And then the conservatorship only lasts for a year. And if they refuse meds, you need a separate hearing, a Riese hearing. The thing is that serious mental illnesses aren't curable, people with schizophrenia often don't believe they're ill so they won't take their meds unless forced, and if you're just functional enough to get your SSD check, buy food, seek out a shelter to sleep in, and keep clothes on your body, you're not "gravely mentally disabled", even if you spend the rest of your time screaming at the shadows.

I saw an LPS conservatorship renewal hearing where the guy said on the stand that he'd kill himself if he got free, but the judge then instructed the jury to disregard that or the chance of him relapsing if he stopped taking his pills (which he also said on the stand that he didn't think he needed), and just to consider if be was unable to provide for his own food clothing or shelter, a requirement so minimal it can be met by demonstrating the ability to go to and from the soup kitchen and the shelter. They found him gravely mentally disabled, but in a year he'll be up again, and all it takes is nine idiots saying he's not GMD and that man will be out on the street and, as he said, either buy some pills to kill himself or else get the police to shoot him. That is not a remotely aceptable mental health system.


>>377234

Asymmetric warfare, RK. If there were a genuine insurrection in the US, it wouldn't be field set confrontations a la WWII. It'd be like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Northern Ireland. Sniping, bombings, sabotage, hit and run raids to steal supplies, assassinations of politicians and military leaders, kidnapping and murder of police/politician/military family members, etc. guerrilla tactics have thwarted the world's largest military for half a century, and they would be even more effective when used in a country as large and well-armed as ours, especially with our police/military being forced to kill their own neighbors.
>> No. 377254
>>377243
>Personally the gun control debate has always felt hollow to me, because it only really pops up as an issue whenever it's politically convenient for its proponents (If they cared so much about "gun crime", why does places like Chicago still have a problem with it?). And any real discussion on improving our mental health system might as well be considered poison in most political circles at this point.
Your second point explains the first. Gun control proponents don't say anything when there's not a major issue at stake because the NRA has such a death-grip on the country that only when there's a strong backing from popular opinion is there any chance to make a difference. Most of the gun control laws that have been suggested lately will do more to help situations like Chicago than they will to prevent another Newtown.
>> No. 377255
>>377253
>Asymmetric warfare, RK. If there were a genuine insurrection in the US, it wouldn't be field set confrontations a la WWII. It'd be like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Northern Ireland. Sniping, bombings, sabotage, hit and run raids to steal supplies, assassinations of politicians and military leaders, kidnapping and murder of police/politician/military family members, etc. guerrilla tactics have thwarted the world's largest military for half a century, and they would be even more effective when used in a country as large and well-armed as ours, especially with our police/military being forced to kill their own neighbors.

The hilarity of that situation stemming from the fact that the people who are seriously considering armed insurrection right now are some of the first to decry terrorism, even though they're just biding their time until they become terrorists themselves.
>> No. 377289
I've come to a couple of realizations with politics:

1) I can only justify my own beliefs with my own experiences.
2) I cannot change anyone elses' mind or try to make them empathize with me, because sometimes they can't put themselves in my shoes or understand where I'm coming from-- and ditto when it's the other way around. I understand that.

I have mixed feelings about guns. I've been mugged (unsuccessfully) and I've lived in an area that was heavily wooded. Lots of animals, including male deer who had a habit of running into oncoming cars and killing drivers. I've also had friends who were almost raped. So I get why someone would own a gun.

On the other hand, I could never own one, because the idea of killing a person or even seriously harming them makes me feel ill.
>> No. 377292
>>377243
>The thing is, drones and nukes don't hold forts. They're used to obliterate them. Men with guns on the ground hold forts, and if Vietnam and the Middle East taught us anything, artillery and weapons alone do not guarantee dominance when you're occupying territory. Especially when you're taking over your own country.

So how do you purpose we overthrow the state? In case you want to know I'm an anarchist.

>>377253
>If there were a genuine insurrection in the US, it wouldn't be field set confrontations a la WWII. It'd be like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Northern Ireland. Sniping, bombings, sabotage, hit and run raids to steal supplies, assassinations of politicians and military leaders, kidnapping and murder of police/politician/military family members, etc. guerrilla tactics have thwarted the world's largest military for half a century, and they would be even more effective when used in a country as large and well-armed as ours, especially with our police/military being forced to kill their own neighbors.

The media is on the side of the state. The military is on the side of the state. The corporate system is on the side of the state. There is no way any sort of insurgency will occur because it will be crushed by our brutal police state. Just look at what happened to OWS when they were thrown out of Zuccotti Park.

What we need is massive civil disobedience. Just like the civil disobedience shown in the rise of the women's movement, the civil rights movement, and LGBT movement, we the people need a movement against the corporate state.

The most fascinating thing about American politics is this:

So you know how liberals always love to say that Democrats aren't real liberals and they suck? Well if you look at conservatives or Tea Party movement and ask them how they feel about Republicans they will say the same thing. In the two party dictatorship, there is no right or left, there is only the corporatists. When the Tea Party began in 2009, I was sympathetic to them, not because I was a conservative, but because I vehemently opposed the bank bailouts. It was later on that the Tea Party establishment was bought out by the Kock brothers. One of the great things is that OWS hasn't been bought out, because they refuse to be a tool of the corrupt corporate controlled Democratic party.

Another thing about American politics is how little the American people have their voices are herd. America is one of the most undemocratic countries in the western world.
>> No. 377294
>>377292
We don't need civil disobedience, we just need to egg on the Religious Right and the Tea Party to split from the Republicans the way they've been claiming they were going to. Once they're out, the Republicans will actually be able to take part in sane politics again, and those democrats who are only in the party because they're only moderate conservatives and feel like they would get eaten alive in Republican Primaries while the insane wing of the party holds sway, will be able to go across the aisle. The parties will actually be able to both have real, live platforms again.
>> No. 377297
>>377292
>The military is on the side of the state.
That really depends how high you go in ranks. A lot of lower ranked soldiers are more loyal to their families or even gangs and would desert to protect and teach their own.
>> No. 377304
>What we need is massive civil disobedience. Just like the civil disobedience shown in the rise of the women's movement, the civil rights movement, and LGBT movement, we the people need a movement against the corporate state.

Am I supposed not to burst into laugher at this sort of argument? Your examples are like saying 2 kids kicking a garbage can is a revolution.
>> No. 377307
>>377294
>we just need to egg on the Religious Right and the Tea Party to split from the Republicans the way they've been claiming they were going to. Once they're out, the Republicans will actually be able to take part in sane politics again, and those democrats who are only in the party because they're only moderate conservatives and feel like they would get eaten alive in Republican Primaries while the insane wing of the party holds sway, will be able to go across the aisle. The parties will actually be able to both have real, live platforms again.

Expect you aren't taking into account the corporate control over both political parties.

>>377304
MLK Jr. was the most powerful US president this country ever had. When he said he would go somewhere thousands of people followed. LBJ was scared the shit out of him.

We need our own MLK Jr. to lead our revolution against greed, against corporations.
>> No. 377309
>>377307
I nominate George Takei.

In fact, let's just abolish the whole thing and rebuild under the glorious reign of Emperor Takei I.
>> No. 377312
>>377307
The enthusiasm is right on, but might I say that outright revolution will only lead to schism, not true understanding?

The issue of the Tea Party and of Fox News is of limited media exposure. People buy the hype because the hype is all they know they can buy. Being exposed to different media and different ideas is difficult for people because it changes their worldview, changes their knowledge base. Since the Internet has existed, since it has surpassed the whole of human written knowledge up to the point of its' creation, I would say in every interaction, when you try to force your point upon someone, they are likely not to accept it.

Revolution in the streets is not what is needed anymore. It only annoys the neighbors. What really changes hearts and minds is spreading ideas that question pre-seated notions. We can't really muster in the streets anymore; everyone has a day job. But we can engage in very public dialogues about what it means to be human and actually try to reach a better understanding between everyone.
>> No. 377313
>>377312
Information is all well and good, and in the internet age we have access to unlimited volumes of it. But when you get a person that is ignorant but wants to know the truth, but does not know how to tell truth from falsehood, and you have one nutritionist/scientist/actual chef in a room full of catty, henpecking old women with SOME experience cooking and a LOT of old wives tales about how the world actually works, you get a lot of infighting about what the truth actually is. It leaves the ignorant person not knowing which source is credible and with more volumes of opinion than the VA has backlogged benefits claims.

And to make matters worse, people like the Kochs and very fundamentalist sorts trying to undermine public schools for being too "left wing biased" try to replace the curriculum entirely with their own biased, worldview approved textbooks. Replacing such things as the civil war with "the war of northern aggression," overturning secular separation of church and state and enabling the teaching of creationism in the classroom, and using the public space to spread misinformation. We don't even have a legitimately infallible system of factchecking and science anymore. Private schools that are just there to give legitimacy to corporate and regional culture interests.

Our newspapers are being bought up by the Kochs. This isn't hyperbole, they are actually trying to buy six of the largest publications in the states and run them the way Rupert Murdoch ran Fox and more. They're trying to buy and steer the science, now. We need a reputable, impartial, science based throne from which we can get reviewed, assessed and widely accessible source for uncompromised fact. We need something that no matter how much money or misinformation the wrong people with the right amount of money have, so long as the public knows they're telling lies, they'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people speaking the truth are speaking truth.

But there's a disconnect between the public and where to FIND these uncompromising, uncorrupted sources of impartial, secular facts. College? College used to be where the people-power went. Then college tuition started skyrocketing up to where the layman couldn't afford to not be ignorant and access to the college culture started drying up. We need people who know better and can explain why something isn't the way ignorant people believe it is, and we need people who can explain why things are the way the ignorant people think it isn't. And at the same time, these people who believe something because it fits their worldview are being conditioned by the other side to believe nonsense, and that doing so is perfectly fine. The absolute worst thing that can happen is the layman is left not knowing who to trust, because so long as the wrong people can claim they're just as valid an opinion as the truth, and spreads the opinion that neither side are anything but ideologues, the public will be both too stressed and too frustrated to engage.

I have no idea how this can be fixed.
>> No. 377318
>>377309
imokwiththis.gif
>> No. 377355
==Rep. Steve Palazzo Claims Boy Scouts are 'Bullied, Extorted' for Banning Gays (Video)==

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/gay-issues/rep-steve-palazzo-claims-boy-scouts-are-bullied-extorted-banning-gays-video

>mfw when homophobes are now claiming to be a persecuted minority

Oh that's rich.

Ok so Mr. Jackass...-errr I mean congressman Steve Palazzo from Mississippi claims the Boy Scouts are being "bullied" for their bigoted hatefilled views towards gays. I guess you could also say that Nazis and the Klu Klux Klan are being "builled" as well for their racist, sexist, and homophobic views. Oh wait he's a white guy from Mississippi, so he's probably a card carrying member of the KKK.
>> No. 377356
>>377355
>Oh wait he's a white guy from Mississippi, so he's probably a card carrying member of the KKK.
:(
>> No. 377371
>>377313
Do you know what I think is actually the best fix? Social Media and scientific progress.

One of the biggest issues of the party right now is that their media sources are horribly restricted. This is probably what will ultimately hurt the party the most; religion exists regardless of politics, but technological and scientific advancement are the tools by which the U.S. is employed right now. And that will be the killer thing; their kids can't get jobs because the jobs increasingly require you to be smarter and smarter.

Assailing people with ideas telling them "YOU R BAD" never actually works in changing hearts and minds. But one of the things about scientific progress is, now, we have this network of stuff, and we post articles about cutting edge technologies, and new ideas concerning health, medicine, and so on. And if you put this in your newsfeed on Facebook, say, you're not directly attacking anyone's point of view, and people may not really read the articles, but they still skim the headlines. And that's what's damaging to a narrow world view; being exposed to ideas that ever so subtly not the party line, but still something that happens. And now that we have everyone getting online, more or less, we have these outrageous communication networks where it's almost impossible to keep a narrow worldview together.

It's a bit idealistic, I admit.
>> No. 377372
>>377355
>Boy Scouts
>bigoted hatefilled views towards gays.
Exclusion is not inherently hate fueled.
The boy scouts are a private club. They can let whomever they want in, that's their prerogative. Unless they start actively campaigning against my existence, I don't have an issue with them.
>Oh wait he's a white guy from Mississippi, so he's probably a card carrying member of the KKK.
Fuck you, hypocrite.
>> No. 377373
>>377372
>Exclusion is not inherently hate fueled.

So what if the Boy Scouts replaced excluding gays, with excluding blacks. You being a gay guy doesn't mean shit to mean because I'm bi myself.

>The boy scouts are a private club.

So what? The KKK is a private club too. Does that make them right?

>They can let whomever they want in,

Sure they can do that, but at the same time they have excluded from being allowed on government grounds for their exclusionary policy. Just because you can let in whoever you want, don't expect people not to say anything or call you a bigot for it.

>Unless they start actively campaigning against my existence,

Gay boy scouts and scout leaders can't come out of the closet. Do you understand how evil that is? Why shouldn't we be allowed in the boyscouts?

>Fuck you, hypocrite.

So much butthurt. I take it you are a Southerner?
>> No. 377374
>>377372
hate gets thrown around a lot. so does phobia.

forget those words.

the problem isn't if someone is feeling angry or fearful.

the problem is the judgment that someone isn't good enough because of something that has nothing to do with the group they want to be involved with. that someone isn't considered a full person in someone else's eyes.
>> No. 377379
>>377355
>Claims Boy Scouts are 'Bullied, Extorted' for Banning Gays

Hehe, this reminds me of before the civil war when slave-owners were complaining about the govt. trying to take away their "right" to own slaves. The logic behind the hypocrisy is just similar, I guess.

>>377313
Yeah, the thing about the internet is that while it's easier than ever to distribute information, it's also easier than ever to make and distribute propaganda. Used to be propaganda worked because there were no other available streams of information. Nowadays we're drowning in the stuff, and following the often gigantic trail of citations from every argument to their original source takes an exhausting amount of time. Plus, like you said, not every authority can be trusted, and the ones that can are usually corrupt after a while.

I believe we're heading into an Oversaturation Age. Opposite a Dark Age where there is a lack of information, in the Oversaturation Age there will be so much data out there that fact and fiction, outside of personal experience and technical knowledge, will be completely indistinguishable. We're kind of in it already, I just think it will become magnified to a much greater extent. The result will be something kind of like the Ministry of Truth in 1984, only nowhere near as organized, one-sided or intentional; not the result of some grand scheme but of many accumulated individual instances where someone benefits from misinforming people, or just makes shit up so their side is "right", all being spread over the same system.

Making up a term like "Oversaturation Age" makes me feel kind of pompous.
>> No. 377380
>>377372
>The boy scouts are a private club. They can let whomever they want in, that's their prerogative.
Agreed, which is why I would never support efforts by the government to make them change. But if public opinion turns against them for their decision, or if their decisions to change make them no longer eligible for government benefits because the violate federal anti-discrimination laws, that's a different story. The fact that it's a private club doesn't mean that they get a free pass from being judged harshly or that they get to ignore the law.

It's just like the whole Rush Limbaugh thing: yes, he has the right to say what he wants. But he does not have the right to be listened to, nor does he have the right to escape judgement when the things he says makes people pissed off enough to not want to support him anymore. That's not censorship. It's simply being expected to face the consequences of your actions.
>> No. 377382
I'm kind of surprised that nobody has tried to start some sort of organization that usurps the role of the Boy Scouts, minus the Christian agenda.
>> No. 377384
>>377382
>I'm kind of surprised that nobody has tried to start some sort of organization that usurps the role of the Boy Scouts,

But there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigators_USA

>Gay-Friendly Alternative to Boy Scouts Doubles in Size in a Year

http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=143609
>> No. 377388
>>377379
I think you're ignoring a couple of things in your assessment. We may live in an over-saturation of information but this actually has 2 benefits.

1. While there's more crap coming out than ever, there's more "good stuff" coming out than ever. The saturation of information means that we are experiencing a renaissance of knowledge. Even pointless knowledge, we're learning more about dumb shit now than we ever have in human history. And the deceptive thing is, that dumb shit is often where the most profound discoveries come from.

2. There's more people connected than ever, who have a voice, who have a knowledge-base, and who can throw their expertise in at the drop of a hat than ever before. And, you'd think that everybody sounding off would be a bad thing, but actually, it produces trends amongst the people claiming to be knowledgeable.

The effect is, instead of a single source of knowledge only vetted by one organization, like a Book, you have multiple anecdotal accounts verifying a kind of bottom line, which can then be backed up by more information from researching or passing it to a Knowledge-Source you trust, who can at least tell you whether it looks genuine or not.

In a way, the hope is that, because many of our jobs here in America focus more and more on specialized positions requiring high levels of knowledge, eventually people won't really be able to ignore scientific advancement, and hopefully rely less on their traditional, narrow minded media. Which has come to dominate everything television and radio, desperately grasping at the only people left who get their information through those means alone. And that can't survive on its' own, as ubiquitous as being connected is becoming.

Tbf this won't completely revolutionize things. But then, we're not after a complete revolution. Well, maybe a bit of an educational Revolution. The thing is, in order to have a better functioning Democratic Republic, we need a baseline level of informed that people should be. Not necessarily useless tidbits, but how to think critically, and how to really question their own notions. The thing is, without the internet, it's entirely possible that the U.S. would be entirely a fascist state with absolutely no avenue for public outcry. As it stands, this is probably the most free anyone has been to voice their dissent in human history, up to and including people spouting opinions based on nothing more than pure hatred.
>> No. 377389
>>377388
>The effect is, instead of a single source of knowledge only vetted by one organization, like a Book, you have multiple anecdotal accounts verifying a kind of bottom line, which can then be backed up by more information from researching or passing it to a Knowledge-Source you trust, who can at least tell you whether it looks genuine or not.

It's sort of always been that way though. Back then you could have multiple papers or books saying different things, and you'd have to do some research to see which one was accurate. I recognize that this makes what I was saying moot. The internet just speeds up a process that's been around since data could be stored, I guess. Definitely a good thing.

>As it stands, this is probably the most free anyone has been to voice their dissent in human history, up to and including people spouting opinions based on nothing more than pure hatred.

A very good point.
>> No. 377391
>>377389
This is all change on a continuum, yes. As with 100 years ago, we are always slowly trying to build a better way of living with everyone. The difference between then and now is that sources of information like books really weren't questioned. You read a book, yeah, but very rarely was that book actually well vetted, and if the information changed in your lifetime, you might not care or even have heard of the follow up book.

Now, we get everything in little bits of info, boiled down chunks and facts. The downside of this is that we don't have the most complete understanding like we might have from a book, but the upside is that we can pass these around and ruminate on them more easily, and we can get corrections to this stuff more easily. Twitter worries news organizations not because it dispels news faster; it dispels news and corrections to erroneous news faster and with something like an 80% saturation rate for the followup info.This means that if you saw the original news bite, there is a better than halfway chance that you will see the follow up, corrected info.

But even beyond that, the simple fact is that when I have a problem, instead of consulting 1 book, and only ever 1 book, I can look online and get 10 proclaimed experts telling me about my problem or parts of my problem. And the usefulness is actually in that diversity; true, I now have 10 viewpoints to consider, but skimming around half of these viewpoints should give me enough passing understanding to have an idea when one source or another is full of shit. And if I find a nugget of wisdom that I can't tell it's full of shit, I just refractor my search.

None of this will ever achieve anything like a "perfect" result. This is a complex world, and even if we could lead every horse to water, we can't make them all drink. But peer pressure is a powerful thing; we don't have to get everybody thinking but if we can get enough people thinking then we might actually be able to stand up to the challenges we face as a nation. And that would be incredible, because the tone of America sets a very deep-seated example for the rest of the world.

We're the Experimental State. Our whole thing (supposedly) is "you can come here, you can live here, you can practice any religion you want, do anything you want (within reason), and hey, you can even have a say in our government, no matter who you are!"

At least, that's the dream. Obviously we've gone sideways a lot on the vast majority of things. But the overwhelming hope is that this is a workable system; this is so close to a system we can make work for almost everybody, so close to actually being something like that possible American Dream. And one of the biggest things holding us back are the people who will not give up on this static fantasy of America. But they're going to have to, otherwise we become the new North Korea.
>> No. 377392
Remember when Republican had their "autopsy" and it said they need to stop alienate women, minorities, gays, etc. Well they didn't read it.

Rick Perry is almost as bad of a governor as Tom Corbett. Well almost as bad.

>Rick Perry compares rejecting LGBT people to fighting slavery

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/06/rick-perry-compares-rejecting-lgbt-people-to-fighting-slavery/

>Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) said Sunday that he believes rejecting LGBT people is similar to fighting slavery during the pre-Civil War era.
>> No. 377426
>>377373
>So what if the Boy Scouts replaced excluding gays, with excluding blacks. You being a gay guy doesn't mean shit to mean because I'm bi myself.
They exclude women. You know what they did? Made their own club.

As for pointing out I'm gay. It puts us on more or less equal ground. Neither of us can use it as an excuse. We can't say. "Oh you don't know. You're not X like me. You don't know the bluh, the bluh bluh, and bluh we have to bluh thruh"

>So what? The KKK is a private club too. Does that make them right?

1. The KKK is actively trying to harm gays, the Scouts are just exclusionary. You may as well complain that they exclude girls.
2. The KKK are protected by freedom of speech just as well as any other group. Just not when they're actively threatening someones well being.
You have to take the good with the bad.
>Sure they can do that, but at the same time they have excluded from being allowed on government grounds for their exclusionary policy. Just because you can let in whoever you want, don't expect people not to say anything or call you a bigot for it.

You can call them whatever you like, but you can't demand they change. That's totally up for them to decide.

>Gay boy scouts and scout leaders can't come out of the closet. Do you understand how evil that is? Why shouldn't we be allowed in the boyscouts?

I was in the Boy scouts as a child. Before I knew I was gay. Honestly, you're not missing out on much. It's already super religious as it is so you probably don't want that anyway (I could be wrong, gay Christians are not an impossibility.) And most of what's done could just be done with friends.
You want reform? You make your own all inclusive club like the Navigators. Don't belittle a group for children and young teens just because they go out of their way to remove sexual tension as best they can (yes to the point of paranoia and the adults really should get background checks but that's another issue.) Get some perspective on this. What do homo/bisexuals like us lose from not being in the boyscouts that we can't get from an alternative group?

>So much butthurt. I take it you are a Southerner?

And if I am? That doesn't change your bigoted regionist stance.
>> No. 377431
>>377426
>1. The KKK is actively trying to harm gays, the Scouts are just exclusionary.

How are scouts not harming gays by banning them? The same thing with the Republican party, expect Republicans to to pretend they aren't anti-gay, where as the Boy Scouts are openly anti-gay.

>You can call them whatever you like, but you can't demand they change. That's totally up for them to decide.

I can demand change, and if they don't I can take my business somewhere else.

>You want reform?

I want bans on gay boy scouts and scout leaders to end. Until than I will not have anything to do with boy-scouts. That's why if they better remove the bans on gay scouting on May 23.

> It's already super religious as it is so you probably don't want that anyway

So wait I can't stereotype stupid Southerners but for religious people you can stereotype them all you want? My parents are Christians and very gay friendly.

>I was in the Boy scouts as a child.

So was I buddy. Welcome to the club.

>What do homo/bisexuals like us lose from not being in the boyscouts that we can't get from an alternative group?

What did Don't ask don't tell lose from not being allowed to openly serve in the military? Any kind of anti-gay stigma in society needs to be crushed.

>And if I am?

Are you?
>> No. 377436
>>377426
>The KKK are protected by freedom of speech just as well as any other group. Just not when they're actively threatening someones well being.

It is really gross that you let hate speech go under the pretense that it is protected by freedom of speech. Freedom of speech has limits, and overtly poisonous ideas like the KKK and Westboro should not be tolerated by the law or by anyone. "It isn't bad enough to punish unless they are physically attacking people" is horseshit.
>> No. 377437
>>377436
I'm afraid I can't agree with stifling any opinion that, by itself, would need to go underground if it couldn't get a legitimate expression. I don't agree with their perspective, but it's not illegal just because you don't like it.
I also abhor obscenity laws and designating little pig pens for free speech.
>> No. 377442
>>377437
You think protesting funerals and telling the grieving family and friends that God wanted this person to die because they were gay is just something I "don't like" and should be allowed to happen? That perpetuating the idea that black people are subhuman scum who deserve no rights at all is okay, because as long as they are just saying things it's okay to do because it's their right to harass people? Because harassing people is protected by the law if it's only verbal?

There is a difference between contrary opinions and toxic ones that hurt people and damage communities. The fact that the KKK is still allowed to continue practicing in broad daylight and spreading their filth in America and are PROTECTED by claiming that hate speech is free speech is pig disgusting.

Canada has banned Westboro members from even coming into the country and yet the vast majority of Canadians--ones that aren't part of organised hate groups--still enjoy free speech to the same degree as Americans. It is not a slippery slope. To criminalize preaching overtly hateful discrimination and forming hate groups based around it isn't the same thing as criminalising any contrary or ignorant opinions.
>> No. 377445
>>377431
>>377436
Again, being non inclusive isn't being against it. It's being dismissive.
I already said that gay Christians are entirely possible so I'm not sure what you mean by stereotyping. Nor do I understand your vendetta against an entire people based on something mostly out of their control. You're bisexual, you should understand that blind hate like that does nothing good for anyone.

As for the military, it is a government institution. The scouts are a private club mostly governed by the World Organization of the Scout Movement. If the straight people want to have their club, let them, they're totally allowed to have it. If people don't want it, they won't take part in it. Democracy.

>>377436
I'm sorry that the First amendment is sometimes unsavory, allowing some toxic concepts to thrive (KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, Escaping Islam, New Black Panther Party, and even crappy annoyances like TMZ, FOX, and NBC), but with freedom you need to take the good with the bad. Freedom of knowledge and the ability to share it is one of the most valuable assets we have. Instead of demanding one mouth close, open another.
>> No. 377450
>>377442
We have laws against defamatory speech, and we have laws against verbal assault, and we have laws against harassment. Are the westboro baptists disgusting? Yes. Are the KKK disgusting? Yes. Do you think those rallies attract sympathizers and disseminate their opinions so much as just highlight that those opinions exist? They don't. They're expression.
But guess what? Somewhere, somebody finds what you say disgusting and wants you to stop saying it. It doesn't matter what you're saying, it matters what you do about it. And if you penalize somebody for saying things you don't like, whatever it is, you get oppression for speech. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. If we set precedent that you can be silenced and imprisoned for the things you say, there is very little stopping the community for twisting it around to apply it to anybody saying things that a large group of people with representation wants you to stop saying.

It's convenient in this era to say, "Well that couldn't happen to homosexual rights advocates. Civil rights aren't against the law." Except it can. It all depends on who is adjudicating and interpreting what constitutes unacceptable speech, and if they like what you have to say. And it is cultural, just as much as it's law.
>> No. 377451
>>377445
I like you, gay guy.
I don't believe in institutionalizing discrimination in a public sphere, be it a state or federal organization, but I find it a massive overreach if somebody wants to walk into a private organization and say, "You need to accept and believe a certain thing, or you will be jailed, fined or restrictions will be placed on your rights."
If it receives public funds, by all means, legislate away. If it's a business, legislate away. If it's a private club of consenting private individuals doing their own thing, let them be private. There's absolutely nothing stopping people from forming competing brands but society, and if it's not what society wants, that's too bad. Something like a new, improved, more relevant version of the Scouts that focuses more on the education, discipline and self-improvement aspects of Scoutdom and either puts no emphasis on the spirituality or religion, or at least the prejudice interpretation of that religion, should be perfectly legal, perfectly viable and perfectly acceptable.

And the people turned off by the exclusion whom suddenly have a nice alternative can take their little grubs and attend something much better and wholesome for them. And the people who believe such insularity is proper can certainly believe so, in their own little corners. As is their freedom. Isolating yourself from society is seldom good for your social life, your financial life or your success.
>> No. 377453
>>377445
>Again, being non inclusive isn't being against it.

So you are saying the Boy Scouts aren't anti-gay? WTF? They ban atheists as well. Does that make them friendly towards atheists?

>Nor do I understand your vendetta against an entire people based on something mostly out of their control.

Tell me if a joined a group that said black people where subhuman do you think that should be called our for my racist bigotry? Oh course. So why do the Boy Scouts get special privilege?

>If the straight people want to have their club, let them, they're totally allowed to have it. If people don't want it, they won't take part in it. Democracy.

Doesn't mean it isn't bigoted or wrong. Doesn't mean I can't protest and boycott the organization. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be pressured by society to change their position.

If this is a democracy than what about the majority that oppose Boy scouts discriminatory policy?

>Elon Poll: North Carolina Citizens Oppose Several State Legislative Proposals, View Results Spanning Various Issues

http://www.hcpress.com/news/elon-poll-nc-citizens-oppose-several-state-legislative-proposals-view-results-spanning-various-issues.html

>North Carolina respondents were also asked about whether the Boy Scouts of America should continue its ban on openly gay members or end its ban. Although a plurality of those surveyed opposed gay marriage, most respondents felt the Boy Scouts of America should end it ban on gay members (49 percent). Forty percent thought the ban should continue and 11 percent indicated the “didn’t know” how they felt on it.

>>377445
>but with freedom you need to take the good with the bad.
I never said I didn't support their freedom to be bigoted assholes. Doesn't mean it's right. Doesn't mean I can't call the Boy Scouts the Hitler Youth. Doesn't mean they shouldn't change their policy.

Even the Mormon church says it support open gay Boy Scouts.
>> No. 377458
I don't think the boy scouts should have to open their doors if the leadership doesn't want to. I think it'd be the right thing to DO but I don't think they should have to.

I DO think they should get their government funding cut if they don't drop the bible stuff though since it violates separation of church and state.

And no you can't ban the KKK or any of that. And if you won't listen to me or Rame explaining why, maybe you'll listen to Neil Gaiman.
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2008/12/why-defend-freedom-of-icky-speech.html
>> No. 377461
>>377451

It's not all that often (but not as rare as you'd think), but I agree with everything you said there Ram.
>> No. 377473
Lately I've been searching for the actual laws regarding firearms and firearm ownership in the United States and trying to get to the bottom of what legally can be done and what legally can't, actually understand and comprehend how the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms works and locate the primary strongholds and variations on the perspective of gun control- from the "ban all guns and repeal the second amendment" individuals, to the ones that would prefer a more visible and accessible gun registry. What I'm discovering is this topic is like trying to walk into the cast of Jersey Shore and get a straight answer after an obvious fight. Seldom in my life have I tried to get a straight answer out of people so steeped on using dirty disgusting tricks, double talk and indirect cultural warfare to get what they want, assert their will over other people and feel a smug sense of superiority and victory over who they disagree with. We have the people that would just as soon challenge the right of the second amendment to exist at all and put proponents in a position where they need to justify guns not being illegal or accessible only to law enforcement and active duty military personnel, if anybody at all.

I got a very rude wake up call when I tried to have a cordial conversation with somebody in the opposition to civilian owned and operated firearms. I was in favor of perhaps modifying background checks and re-evaluating the ways in which a person might legally obtain a gun, and seeing what could be done to curb illegal sales. The other person confessed to believing ultimately that nobody needed or should have guns, and in their opinion, constricting who could access them, how much they could cost, how much they could justify having in a magazine or clip or drum, what caliber they could justify possessing, was just a way to incrementally eliminate the public's access to them. They weren't just happy to impose more stringent controls and some slightly more comprehensive background checks, they wanted to remove legal civilian access to them whatsoever.

That filled me with rage. Aren't these dinosaurs dead yet? Or supposed to be the ignorant knowlier-than-thou lib-rals you only hear about in the diseased ramblings of Nugenteers? The same kind of rage that bubbles up whenever I see "Pro-Life"rs find some backdoor and convoluted technical way to make accessing a legal abortion less and less possible, depending on the region in which they can get away with their shit. It's no wonder pro-gun people are so hesitant to even explain the difference between a military sniper and a civilian isn't the caliber of bullet or the barrel of the gun, it's the capacity to put the bullet where they want it to go. There are already very stringent laws on the books on having or possessing guns to go full or semi auto. If these assholes knew the difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle is who's aiming it, what caliber they're using and what they're shooting at, it'd be a push to ban everything but spud guns.

I've been told that in order to acquire guns legally over the internet, in the states, your order goes to a local gun dealer. You have to show up, go through the rigamaroll of a background check, and you have to legally check out. In the case of the theater shooter, it was a case of his college neglecting (not just failing) to report his compromised mental state to his background. If his background were properly updated, as it should have been, he would not have been able to check out. That's not a failure of the second amendment, that's a failure of somebody acquiring things illegally for malevolent purposes. In theory this makes his school and his psych entirely accountable for the failure to communicate.

Currently I'm communicating with a person representing a licensed gun dealership. I've heard some things that, if true, would make me distrust the BATFE as an agency myself. Things that I haven't yet been able to substantiate or confirm to be false, or propaganda, but I have reason to trust the source. And they kind of corroborate what I've heard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Firearms_and_Explosives#History_of_controversy

The problem is that if these things said about the BATF are true, and it's starting to look as if they may be (until I find contradicting anecdote and fact to argue) it's only a happy coincidence the very same people that are supposed to be advocating for the legitimate, responsible possession of guns and their legitimacy in North American life, are the exact same sort of idiots that think they're above having to explain themselves and choose instead to flex a bicep and go "HURRR. LIBRAL" at dissent. It's this exact attitude that makes it difficult for people with no strong disposition for or against the competing schools of thought regarding guns, and gives them every reason to believe maybe the people that want us to be more like Australia, the UK and Japan are on to something. The same way the war on drugs and prohibition were on to something.
>> No. 377474
>Exclusive interview with Noam Chomsky on Pakistan elections

http://dawn.com/2013/05/07/exclusive-interview-with-noam-chomsky/
>> No. 377489
>>377473

That's actually pretty much it, Ram. Hardcore "pro-lifers" want abortion banned in all cases because in their minds, terminating a pregnancy is morally indistinguishable from premeditated murder, so in their minds they're obligated to get it completely outlawed. Until then, they restrict access However they can: waiting periods, spousal vetoes, parental notification, requiring clinic hallways be x feet wide, mandatory trasnvaginal ultrasounds, etc. if you're convinced you may be saving a life, you can justify it, regardless of the invasions of privacy and suffering you create.

Likewise, if you accept it as axiomatic that civilians don't have the right or need for guns, and that their ownership of guns inevitably leads to deaths, you can justify any end-run around the 2nd Amendment/district of Columbia v. Heller/McDonald v Chicago, regardless of the burden it imposes on law abiding gun owners, its broader civil rights implications, or its actual effect on violent crime.

We need gun regulation, we do. theyre dangerous tools, and we need to hold owners responsilbe for their negligent use and storage and prevent those likely to use them negligently or intentionally to harm others (children, the mentally ill, convicted felons) from owning them. but our regulations need to make sense. Does a pistol grip make a rifle more accurate, or the bullet it fires more damaging? Of course not, but combine removable magazine with pistol grip and woops! Now that hunting rifle is an evil assault rifle. Does a gun become more likely to be used in a crime if it holds 11 rounds rather than 10 or seven? Of course not, but arbitrary magazine limits abound. Why are post-86 automatic weapons banned for civilians but not pre-86 ones? No reason! Its not that we've decided that full-auto is too dangerous for civilians, its just that congressman hughes tacked it on to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 and we've been stuck with a dwindling, aging, and increasingly stock of civilian automatics ever since. are open bolt semi-autos fully autpmatic? of course not, they fire one bullet per trigger pull, but the ATF has decided that open-bolt = full auto, so they are, legally! Why are short-barreled rifles NFA items even though pistols, which are smaller, easier to conceal, and can come in rifle calibers, and regular length rifles, which are more powerful and accurate, are not? Because a bunch of idiots back in the prohibition era thought they were gangster weapons! Likewise, silencers are non-transferrae (or repairable!) NFA items and are banned in many states, whip in Europe they practically force you to buy a suppressor for your gun (because hearing protection, noise pollution laws, mostly indoor ranges, and dense population). And why are drivers licenses, marriages (minus gay ones), and all contracts and debts binding across state lines, but ccw permits may or may not be honored? No good reason.

In any state in the union, you can safely assume full freedom of religion, speech, assembly, and travel. but state by state, and even county by county, your right to keep and bear arms varies wildly; in CA, there are counties where anyone can get a ccw, and some where theyre completely unaivalable, and its all at the unreviewed discretion of the sheriff. We need laws on guns, but they need to make sense, have uniformity, and should be able to stand up to strict scrutiny, like other restrictions imposed on the rights in the bill of rights. But, like most political issues in the country, discussion is impossible, facts are irrelevant.
>> No. 377512
>>377489
Allegedly, some of the first gun control measures were steeped in racism. Similar to the way drug laws were. I haven't researched this, and I dread having to sift and filter through the propaganda (because this sounds like a ridiculous fabricated talking point), but according to my contact, the ACLU and original Black Panthers will corroborate that the laws were designed to make a person applying for gun registry had to come down to the guy that verified you, and, not unlike states or regions where the voting registration filtered you by race, would check to see if you were black or not. And this sort of makes sense.
Now one could say the Obscenity Test is regionally contextually specific, but that doesn't make it any better.

Also, I can't read the legalese, and I don't have the conspiracy theorist "it's proof them li-bur-alls is after our guns!" engine to default to the right-side of the debate. But, allegedly the well meaning background check bill and legislation attempted to be passed recently would've introduced complication to inheritance of a person's guns. Since you'd need them registered in your name, or whatever, even being married to a person wouldn't guarantee them to be considered legal objects in the event the owner died. I don't know if whether that possession would be considered a felony by the ATF's definition, or if the judge or whoever would dictate the legal ownership falls to whomever inherited them, or what. I don't know. It's just as possible that it's true as it is false and a product of redneck hysteria.
That's what I hate the most about this issue, but I don't think it can stay up to either side anymore.
>> No. 377531
>>377512

Don'tet the stupidity on both sides lead to apathy. That's the worst thing. If you'd honestly don't know where you stand, then seek the truth passionately. If you know where you stand, keep searching.

Yes, gun control has racist elements to it. The (loaded) open carry ban in California was Ronnie Reagan's fault; he did it because white folks were freaked out by the Black Panthers demonstrating on the state Capitol while carrying loaded rifles. Earlier than that, the Southern states' "Black Codes" banned blacks from owning guns (and assembling after dark, etc); those were repealed by the Civil Rights Act of 1866, and the 14th Amendment, so the South was forced to use facially neutral, but discriminatory in intent and application, statutes and regulations to deny blacks gun ownership. Prior to the Civil War, in the Dred Scott decision, Chief Justice Roger Taney listed the possibility of armed blacks as one of the reasons the court was determining that men of Scott's race could not be citizens: "It would give to persons of the negro race, who were recognized as citizens in any one State of the Union ... the full liberty ... to keep and carry arms wherever they went."

Historically, it must be seen in the context of the two revolutions: the American one, and the Haitian one. The Haitian revolution and subsequent race war scandalized the slave-owning south. They knew that it was entirely a possibility in the US, as abortive attempts like Turner's rebellion demonstrated. This page has a good article, with citations.

In the end, the racial angle of gun control, like the class angle (got 15,000 bucks plus 200 for the tax stamp? Congrats, you can own a full-auto! Don't got that much scratch? Tough shit) is just part of the overarching theme of arms, and information, control: those with power want to maintain, solidify, and expand upon it. If you're the white majority and you see blacks taking up arms, you want to nip that in the bud; if you're the bourgeoisie and you see the workers start buying guns and organizing, you want to cut that shit out; ditto if you're part of the modern bureaucratic-corporate oligarchy.


http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

“A man’s rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.”-- Frederick Douglas
>> No. 377547
>>377531
>If you're the white majority and you see blacks taking up arms, you want to nip that in the bud; if you're the bourgeoisie and you see the workers start buying guns and organizing, you want to cut that shit out; ditto if you're part of the modern bureaucratic-corporate oligarchy.
Also, if you're sane and see crazy people taking up arms, you want to nip that in the bud, too. It's such a travesty the way people try to step on psychopath's right to carry tools that make their killing quicker and harder to trace. What's the second amendment for if not to make sure those who commit gun crimes or who are just irresponsible with their deadly weapons can't be caught?
>> No. 377567
>>377547
The second amendment allows you to legally and privately own (not lease) firearms. We have laws that mitigate and stipulate just what counts as a firearm, where you can legally acquire one, etc.
The second amendment does not give you a license to kill, or to inflict crime on people. It does not decriminalize criminal actions, it permits you to have an object which could, if misused, be used for a crime. Crime is still crime, whether it's committed by a hit and run or a gun.

What you're afraid of is gun culture. You aren't unjustified in your fear, but there's a difference between being afraid of something and passing legislation and social policy to get rid of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
^ Shit like this is not helping.

>>377531
I'm not giving up. But I spend more time trying to scrutinize which side is trying to blow smoke up my ass than making any progress.
>> No. 377570
>>377567
>The second amendment allows you to legally and privately own (not lease) firearms. We have laws that mitigate and stipulate just what counts as a firearm, where you can legally acquire one, etc.
The second amendment does not give you a license to kill, or to inflict crime on people. It does not decriminalize criminal actions, it permits you to have an object which could, if misused, be used for a crime. Crime is still crime, whether it's committed by a hit and run or a gun.

>What you're afraid of is gun culture. You aren't unjustified in your fear, but there's a difference between being afraid of something and passing legislation and social policy to get rid of it.

The thing is, any attempt to at all make gun crime more enforceable is met with scorn by the NRA and their droves of gun nuts, because it's all "The first step on the slippery slope toward the government taking our guns!" Fuck that noise. It's alarmist bullshit that is pushed solely to reduce the economic impact on gun manufacturers, using fear to convince gun owners that it's in their best interests to look out for the people who are preying on them. There would be no harm in a national gun registry that makes tracking guns used in crimes to their place of purchase and maybe even their owners even when they cross state lines, but it would make gun salesmen have to fill out more forms, which is enough to get the NRA shouting "Second amendment violation!"

Very few people have talked about actually rounding up the guns and getting rid of them. But that is the first fucking thing any gun nut starts shouting about whenever someone says "Hey, you guys are being a bit irresponsible with your deadly toys."
>> No. 377571
>>377570
But it's not responsible gun owners who are misusing their tools. And a lot of the policy that gets crafted, one could argue, does little to nothing to actually make the guns any safer or prevent crime. It just tries to solve the problem by limiting access, under the assumption the only way to reduce the crime is to limit the access.
Given how many crimes are committed in detroit by guns recovered that have been illegally sold through irreputable salespeople, the vast majority, what the ATF should be doing is cracking down on the people actually selling them. Gun advocates point out the FBI could probably do this rather easily, so why can't the ATF? The ATF seem to be able to locate historical pieces and collection pieces for taking and dismantling. With the hubub of the ATF sending guns over the Mexican border illegally, those guns going up missing and the operation getting bungled, there are now guns sold being used against the body armor of border patrol agents. Ones expensive and powerful enough to penetrate it.

What the NRA is and has become is trash, I agree. But it is disingenuous and terrible and toxic to say just because a terrible group of people are championing something or using underhanded techniques or tactics to prevent what they see is wrong, that the thing they're championing is illegitimate. I really need to know more concrete facts about the ATF.
>> No. 377578
>>377571
>make guns any safer
You need to abandon this line of thinking. Guns are not safe. Their purpose is not to be safe. There is nothing you can do to make them safer. Training makes you safe, steady trigger fingers make you safe. There is nothing you can simply attach to a gun to make it safe; that's not what it's designed for. Even bean-bag rounds can kill at the right range in the right spot.

Also if they have to use underhand tactics to justify something, then that makes it illegitimate. If their point is legit, they don't have to be shady to make it. And that's all they're being is shady. The majority of Gun Owners might have actual rational concerns about such things that should be addressed. The majority of Gun Owners in the U.S. are not members of the NRA, and the NRA should not be listened to as a barometer of anything other than the gun lobby.

Also, the ATF is goddamn useless because it has no real teeth to it:
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
>> No. 377584
>>377578
>Also if they have to use underhand tactics to justify something, then that makes it illegitimate.
This applies to both sides.

So. What exactly is substantially stopping the ATF from monitoring and intercepting illegally bought guns in Arizona? They know where a bunch of the people are, they know the straw purchasers are a veritable bonanza there. Sidestepping the necessity of a gun registry for the moment (I don't have enough information to know the necessity or unnecessity of such a thing), what is stopping the ATF from investigating known and alleged straw purchasers?
>> No. 377609
>>377584
Read the article. In addition to infighting, the laws surrounding guns and trafficking do not invest sufficient power in agents to act upon information they have. To say that the ATF "allowed" this gun walking scandal is misleading; the guns move whether the ATF allows it or not.

When they proceed with these weapon "stings", most of the people they want to role on, they can't do so because there is no concrete evidence, no probable cause. If someone with no prior record, no money, and no house buys a $40,000 gun, that purchase is completely legal, and even though there is no possible way they could afford that weapon without being handed money by criminal elements, the ATF cannot arrest them, cannot hold them, cannot really charge them with anything because the law (and the higher-ups) says that the evidence we have is entirely circumstantial, and not enough to charge the person with even a misdemeanor. It's a weird Al Capone situation; we could probably nab them if we sic'd the IRS on these people but conventional enforcement has no leg to stand on. It isn't illegal to "gift" someone a gun behind closed doors, just like it isn't illegal to hand them $40,000. It isn't even reckless endangerment.

You can buy a car without a drivers' license, but you can't legally drive it unless you are registered and insured, and if you are caught driving uninsured you can face jail time. This isn't quite the same for guns, but there is no penalty for handing over a gun from someone who is trusted by the system to someone who isn't trusted. If someone purchases a gun from you and you see that they are legit, and they go off the reservation and shoot up a public space (and likely kill themselves/get shot by police/get captured), there is no way you can be technically liable because to every source you had, you had no idea that they would do that.

But when they pass it off illegitimately, there are no laws that really deal with that. We are not allowed to try and track every gun; if a rifle purchased in an American shop shows up in gang shoot out with police, we are not allowed to go back to the seller or the dupe buyer and say "look, based on the the gun being found at a crime scene and your status as the last official buyer, we are charging you with conspiracy to distribute firearms to criminal organizations/terrorist forces/crazy people". Can't do that; they'll say they lost it or it was stolen. And there is no penalty for "losing" a gun, even though that is the very definition of reckless endangerment.

Handing guns to people behind closed doors is not necessarily the problem; the problem is we have no legal recourse for saying "why were you giving firearms to to an ex-con with multiple tattoos denoting "kills"?".
>> No. 377631
>>377609
So much to research.
>> No. 377685
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/12/shooting-new-orleans/2154071/

FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS EVERYWHERE FUCK

Obama really isn't going to let up until he gets our guns.
>> No. 377699
>>377685
>FALSE FLAG

No the only false flag operations is the one the Israeli and Turkish governments is trying to push on the Americans people into going to war in Syria.
>> No. 377730
>>377699
There's a possibility that guy was being sarcastic.
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